I listened to a debate on the IG site called Sonone.
During the debate the Christian kept asking the Athiest,
'what sort of proof would you need to convience you that god exists"?
The Atheist seemed stumped and said if god would come down and show himself to me.
That would not be very useful proof as he would be back to square one and he would try to use his personal and subjective proof to convience others, like Christians currently do now.
Here is the proof that would convience me.
That if god would preach through every Church preacher the exact same message world wide, word for word similtaniously, without any prior communication between each preacher.
Today in most Churches all messages are taped.
So if every tape was gathered they would not be able to tell the difference between each message. They would all be exactly idenitcal to each other, even in the phrasing and pauses.
To confirm the message was from god and not from a demon.
The message would have to expound the mysteries of the Bible in certain verses and then explain them in logical detail.
That would be the type of proof that would work for me.
What proof would work for you?
_________________ One man's god is another man's delusion.
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:45 pm
I have a simple answer to this. If I was capable of anything, I would believe in god because I would BE god.
The only thing that could convince me there is a god is if I were it.
powerup Newbie First Class
Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 44
Posted:
Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:08 am
Is that like saying to understand boiling water, I have to become water?
If we can tranmit symultaniously with satilites, then surely god could out do our technology?
_________________ One man's god is another man's delusion.
Raskolnikov The Learned
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:45 am
Just seeing God before me doing an impossible act. (creating something from nothing, raising my Grandpa from the dead, etc.)
_________________ "I did not bow down to you, I bowed down to all the suffering of humanity."
- Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Crime and Punishment"
raky Newbie
Joined: Jan 10, 2008
Posts: 18
Location: 29681
Posted:
Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:11 am
I would want god to do some of the same things he did in the Bible to me, so I wouldn't think I was crazy believing a lot of stories that aren't true.
It would help if he didn't just show his face to a few guys, like Moses and ...? ,and if he talked to more people who did good things, not just people like the President.
_________________ "This is The Life." Someone Else
powerup Newbie First Class
Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 44
Posted:
Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:33 am
What proof from the Bible are you referring too?
1. The Five Hundred zombies that walk the earth that is so incredible that it only get a mention once in any book ever?
2. A Civilization that suffers from ten plagues so two million slaves can take a stroll through a sea bed and then go and starve on psychodelic mushrooms, to end up worshipping a golden cow and then half of them get swallowed up by a violent Earthquake?
2(a) To have the rest of these people taken to a land where giant fruit and vegies grow and to prove that the over sized fauna existed the giant fruit and vegies stop growing from the point that they start to live in the region.
(It's Funny that the giant fruit grew under the power of a false god but stopped growing under the true god) How convienient?
3. Have a bunch of people go around telling a fantastic tale that insults each culture's regional god beliefs and to prove their god is real the preachers die horrible deaths?
4. Have a guy contest other god believers, so he calls down fire from heaven which turns him into maniac killing machine, which makes him slaughter 500 believers in bloody rage?
5. Or seeing a guy who lies on his side and eats his own crap?
_________________ One man's god is another man's delusion.
Robocoastie The Learned
Joined: Nov 30, 2004
Posts: 122
Posted:
Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:44 pm
raky wrote:
I would want god to do some of the same things he did in the Bible to me, so I wouldn't think I was crazy believing a lot of stories that aren't true.
It would help if he didn't just show his face to a few guys, like Moses and ...? ,and if he talked to more people who did good things, not just people like the President.
which "god" from the Bible? The gods of creation (yes plural) are very different from the god of Moses. The god of David is basically silent. The god of "Job" is more greek-like like the one in creation, the god of the Gospels is silent and a polar opposite of the tribal war ones of the OT. and so on...
Christians explain all that away by saying those are "aspects" of god, jehova-tsikenu, jehova jirah etc... but the variations are more than just name or aspects, they are very different when we take off the glasses of pre-concieved theology and read it. They're clearly so different that I don't even bother with arguments based on scripture anymore but deal only with the ones which philosophy and psychology also address - the bible has lost so much credibility to me now and religious factions interpret it so differently that it's not a worthy standard for discussion.
Brian37 Forum Master
Joined: Oct 04, 2003
Posts: 10152
Posted:
Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:23 am
Robocoastie wrote:
raky wrote:
I would want god to do some of the same things he did in the Bible to me, so I wouldn't think I was crazy believing a lot of stories that aren't true.
It would help if he didn't just show his face to a few guys, like Moses and ...? ,and if he talked to more people who did good things, not just people like the President.
which "god" from the Bible? The gods of creation (yes plural) are very different from the god of Moses. The god of David is basically silent. The god of "Job" is more greek-like like the one in creation, the god of the Gospels is silent and a polar opposite of the tribal war ones of the OT. and so on...
Christians explain all that away by saying those are "aspects" of god, jehova-tsikenu, jehova jirah etc... but the variations are more than just name or aspects, they are very different when we take off the glasses of pre-concieved theology and read it. They're clearly so different that I don't even bother with arguments based on scripture anymore but deal only with the ones which philosophy and psychology also address - the bible has lost so much credibility to me now and religious factions interpret it so differently that it's not a worthy standard for discussion.
What the believer never wants to consider is that these "aspects" are an amalgimation of stories being passed down and changed from multiple cultures in polythiesm then onto and through monotheism and that there is no super hero in the sky, just competing stories that get changed over time.
Ochamm's razor explains this very simply.
Which makes more sense?
1. Hocus pokus "Poof" god(s) exist? IE..|Thor makes lighting. Snakes turn instantainously into wood. Allah picks the sex of the baby. Zombie god survives rigor mortis after 3 days.
or
2. Humans are capable of looking at prior myth and prior stories and incorperating the motifs into their religion and are capable of changing the details and names and believing them to be fact?
So of course it is no suprise that these different aspects exist, because there was more than one culture competing to shape that religion and it makes much more sense to me that they looked to multiple sources from multiple cultures. Humans dont exist in a vaccume.
Christianity is popular today for the same reason Islam is, it is not because their deities exist, but because of the successfull marketing of those who buy these deities as fact.
Religion is no different than Coke and Pespi, Coke comes out with a Cherry soda, Pepsi looks at it and says, "That idea seems to work for them, lets try it too and give it a slightly diffferent flavor, different name and different color can". That still doesnt change the fact that Pepsi is still making a soda.
Saying that the god of Abraham is original is like saying that Coke is the first beverage because it's can is red.
powerup Newbie First Class
Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 44
Posted:
Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:39 am
Good point there are many gods not only in the Bible but throughout the world.
Lets say there is a invisible force in life, in the universe or anywhere else that people can come up with. I have noticed that religion tries to own and label this invisible force and make it their own lap god and thinks it is only unique only to them alone.
But if this invisble force is real, it seems to have no concern for religion and must be fairly laid back in regards to the affairs of man.. really.
From what I have noticed from just about every known civilization they all have their own conception of a god and some of their ideas overllap without any known communication from other civilizations.
For instance: the most isolated tribe in the world, the Australian Aboriginies. They have a dream time creation story with a rainbow serpent.
Serpent seems to come up a lot of times thoughout many religious civilizations.
_________________ One man's god is another man's delusion.
Abraxus Grand Poster
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Posts: 1457
Location: If I were to take your head right now, all your knowledge and strength will be mine.
Posted:
Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:16 pm
I just can't think of anything that couldn't have a rational, scientific explanation as a more reasonable alternative. If you can, then I suppose that would be proof of God.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 2022
Location: Southern California
Posted:
Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:28 pm
Considering xians supposedly have the spirit of god living inside of them... I'd be convinced if xians were like the Jedi with special powers or something.
Good point there are many gods not only in the Bible but throughout the world.
Lets say there is a invisible force in life, in the universe or anywhere else that people can come up with. I have noticed that religion tries to own and label this invisible force and make it their own lap god and thinks it is only unique only to them alone.
But if this invisble force is real, it seems to have no concern for religion and must be fairly laid back in regards to the affairs of man.. really.
From what I have noticed from just about every known civilization they all have their own conception of a god and some of their ideas overllap without any known communication from other civilizations.
For instance: the most isolated tribe in the world, the Australian Aboriginies. They have a dream time creation story with a rainbow serpent.
Serpent seems to come up a lot of times thoughout many religious civilizations.
The Australian Aborigines were isolated from Europeans for a long time, but not from people from south east Asia and what is now the area of Indonesia. Snakes exist in most places and have been regarded with a dread fascination pretty universally. No mystery there. The very different status in their religion, ie closer to the status of the creator/God, compared to being the symbol of evil in Xianity, suggests that these beliefs had little in common.
The tribes iin valleys in the highlands of the island of New Guinea were far more isolated, some only being contacted by the outside world in the middle of the 20th century. They practised things like ancestor worship and ritual cannibalism, obviously closely paralleling Xianity
It would be astonishing if there were
not
general aspects of religious beliefs common to all cultures, but the specifics vary all over the place.
powerup Newbie First Class
Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 44
Posted:
Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:42 am
I am just stirring the waters to find some proof.
Maybe there is some proof in the similarities of other religions but they are all a potpurri of each other.
Animal sacrifice seems to be right up there on the god pleasing poll.
The idea seems to be, we are all sheep maybe if we kill a good one, god will forgive us. I hope this god forgives animal cruelity while he is at it.
really strange crap. I wonder if any of the believer ever questioned, how they could ever know that they are forgiven after the lamb is killed.
The answer must, just do not question the power of god, now hand me the blunt knife.
_________________ One man's god is another man's delusion.
I am just stirring the waters to find some proof.
Maybe there is some proof in the similarities of other religions but they are all a potpurri of each other.
Animal sacrifice seems to be right up there on the god pleasing poll.
The idea seems to be, we are all sheep maybe if we kill a good one, god will forgive us. I hope this god forgives animal cruelity while he is at it.
really strange crap. I wonder if any of the believer ever questioned, how they could ever know that they are forgiven after the lamb is killed.
The answer must, just do not question the power of god, now hand me the blunt knife.
The problem I see here is you are looking for 'proof', rather than seeking the truth. You are not on the path to wisdom.
powerup Newbie First Class
Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 44
Posted:
Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:03 am
Truth without proof is pie in the sky, Bob.
If there is something out that is invisible and it can interact with the physical world there must be proof before I can say it is truth.
You may not call that being wise but I am as sure as shit not going to be called gullible.
I consider all to most statements of the metaphysical but without proof I will never call it truth.
Truth needs proof, period.
Unless Bob knows of something that can be in existance and it is exempt of the need for proof.
Please tell me what that might be, oh wise one.
_________________ One man's god is another man's delusion.
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