Fred Baughman "ADHD Fraud" Show

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:18 am

I just got done listening to the podcast about the "ADHD Fraud". I agree with the repeat caller / psych student....Jason? I do think the majority of ADHD cases are parents/teachers wanting a way to make active, excitable kids "sit down and shut up", but this idea that Dr. Baughman put forth, that unless you can point to a specific neurological cause for a behavior, that behavior must be completely normal is ludicrous. The fact that he pointed to neurology every time reminds me of the old saying, "To the man who only has a hammer in the toolkit, every problem looks like a nail."

If I'd had the chance to call in, I'd have put the ball squarely in his court in this way:

Quote:

First, we'll say that you're right, that psychology is useless and unscientific, and that we're going to throw out any psychoactive drugs as well. First, do you believe that people with bipolar disorder, or the series of behaviors are commonly referred to as bipolar disorder, are potentially harmful to the person exhibiting them and their surrounding environment?

If this guy is any kind of doctor, he would say yes, those behaviors are harmful. People with untreated bipolar disorder can become violent towards other people and have a suicide rate 10-20 times that of the general population ( Source .)
Then:

Quote:

OK, then if not psychoactive drugs, then how do you propose that we prevent those who exhibit bipolar sorts of behaviors from harming themselves or others?

Obviously, the doctor's theory of telling kids with ADHD to sit down and shut up wouldn't work in this case.

I believe it was the first caller who pointed out that the doctor used a very fundie-like tactic of redefining words to meet his particular needs. Also, the doctor employed a very Bill O'Reilly-esque tactic of attempting to interrupt and talk over the opponent. That won't lend to your credibility, doc.

I'd wondered at certain points if this guy was actually a Scientologist ...

Confident Learner Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 82

I was wondering if he was a scientologist also, seems like a he has a very similar bias.

I was hoping that they would get more into Bipolar disorder, my stepson is Bipolar. This one is particularly nasty. Even if they do not have anything we can point a finger at and say "this is what is wrong" the symptoms cannot be denied. Dealing with a child with unmedicated Bipolar is sheer hell (you know what I mean). It's bad enough with medication but without it, it is a living nightmare. The simple fact is that the drugs help. Maybe they have bad side effects short and long term, however they are no where near as bad as letting the problem go untreated.

Is it a chemical imbalance? Maybe, I have been told that and have reason to disbelieve a qualified expert.

I hear a lot of people (a lot of them Christians) talk about sparing the rod and words to that effect. I would never say there was not a place for reasonable chastisement but when a kid is raging and beating his head against the wall I don't think he would notice that he was getting spanked.

I'd suggest that if you have not experienced it and lived with it you have no idea.

Dusty

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:52 am

For those of you that care, the latest episode of the podcast "The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe" mentioned this particular IG interview. The host, Dr. Steve Novella (a neurologist at Yale University), really went off on this, claiming the ADHD deniers to be worse than creationists...

People should check it out. Dr. Novella and the others with The New England Skeptical Society can be accessed via this link .

It's a great show...

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:27 am

I just listened to the latest show, and Dr. Baughman is...well... how to phrase this diplomatically...?

To give you a little background, I have been a medical-surgical RN for 20 years. I have spent all that time (minus the last five months) working on an inpatient floor and interacting closely with physicians-- from residents to attendings.

There's a certain distinct set of "symptoms," if you will, that an older physician begins to display when he or she is starting to get "past it." To be blunt, Dr. Baughman is displaying ALL of these symptoms.

Crankiness, paranoia (all that blather about how Psychiatry is trying to fool/defraud/"put one over" on the gullible public), extreme rigidity of opinion, self-contradiction, grandiosity (speaking with an imperious air as if his authority were supreme/arrogantly interrupting and talking over other guests and callers), and most notably, being "stuck" in the past.

Dr. Baughman seemed unable to quote a single study or article after 1999 which bolstered his position.

It's a shame, really. He probably was a great neurologist in his day.

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:47 am

Funny, I listened to the SGU podcast first, and heard Dr. Novella mention his debate on IG's podcast, so naturally I listened to it next.

A few thoughts...

Dr. Baughman came across as a bully and an asshole, he would totally walk all over Dr. Novella when he was trying to reply. Plus, Dr. Baughman wouldn't acknowledge that some of his arguments were shaky, he just didn't come across as intellectually honest. I got sick of him trying to play on the emotions of ''Reggie's audience''. (He made smart ass remarks about Reg's audience "having to know better" kind of crap).

Although I am a big fan of Novella's show, the Skeptic Guide to the Universe, I don't think he was totally on his ''A'' game during this debate. The caller seemed to put Baughman in his place a little better than Novella.

And no offense Reg, but I wish you would jump in a little quicker when both speakers start flying off the handle, things get confusing really quick. Plus, I wish you wouldn't let nonsensical ranting, like Baughman's, continue as long as you do sometimes. I realize it's a discussion, so the format isn't exactly the same as the Debate Hour, but it seemed to me Baughman was using this as an opportunity to proselytize, not discuss, and I hate it when shows turn into this sort of poor showmanship.

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 23, 2007 Posts: 3

First I would like to thank both participants of the debate, Dr Baughman and Dr. Novella, for their expertise. Out-of-studio debates (i.e., over phone lines vs face-to-face) are at best difficult considering body language and the reading of facial discrepancies are part of our communication pathways. So, notwithstanding the comments above I would still like to say that the lively debate was very informative.

Being a PhD researcher in the field of AD/HD, I find Dr Baughman correct in his stating that as-to-date there is no such clinical test that proves beyond a doubt that AD/HD is more than a set of behaviors deamed as inappropriate to specific situations . I would be most interested in the names of the studies that Dr Novella had in front of him.

While there have been many attempts to find a definative test for this syndrome, even studies using fMRI have proven at best inconclusive and premature in stating that there is a "brain signature" for AD/HD (see Just Cause in The Sciences by Dr R J DeGrandpre (1999) and MRI Neuroimaging of childhood psychiatric disorders: A selective review in Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry by Eliez, S & Reiss, A (2000). The so-called discovery of fMFI finding had mixed results, and failed to address the causes of ADHD (DeGrandpre, 1999). Research using Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) as a diagnostic tool for the identification of AD/HD has since been characterized by methodological disparities and contradictions in interpretation that have contributed to discrepant findings (Eliez & Reiss, 2000).

Also, we must remember that we are in very early days, really the dark-ages and as Dr John (the caller) stated, "We have not yet illuminated the disease process to the disorder". What we also need to remember is that positive results from stimulant drugs do not demonstrate AD/HD is a disease, as some Pharmaceutical companies would like us to believe.
According to the DSM IV and MIMS stimulant medication should be the last resort after all other avenues have been exhausted. What I have seen in over-crowded classrooms and over-worked parents trying to keep up with the demands of the 21st Century lifestyle is generally a scene of neglect, abandonment and problems in attachment in these children. Therefore, before we find ourselves in another state like what has happened recently in Virginia, we need to re-evaluate and drop back on drugging children until a rigorous and irrefutable diagnosis is found to meet the needs of service industries, such as child and adolescent mental health services, child care facilities and schools, which take their instructions from primary care clinicians responsible for children diagnosed with AD/HD.
Cheers Jennifer

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:45 am

Jennifer,
You might be interested to continue this conversation, or at least post what you put here, over on Dr. Novella's blog. He has posted a reply to this debate. I am interested in his reply to what you have posted. Here is the link to his blog: http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/default.asp

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 23, 2007 Posts: 3

Thanks Jamie
I have taken the liberty to visit his site and asked him as a silent participator for the citations. However, perhaps I will join the debate on his site and relocate my comments there.
Thanks or your encouragement Jennifer

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 23, 2007 Posts: 3

Also, for the people who are interested in a balanced aspect of the debate, have a look at these, think again and join the real debate. . .

Ritalin Nation: Rapid-fire culture and the transformation of human conciousness by Richard DeGrandpre (1999).
Critical New Perspectives on ADHD by Gwynedd Lloyd, Joan Stead & David Cohen (2006).
Cries Unheard: A new look at aAttention Deficit Hyperacitivey Disorder by George Halasz, Gil Anaf, Peter Ellingsen, Anne Manne, & Frances Thomson Salo (2002).
Selling Sickness: How the World's Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies are turning us all into patients by Ray Moynihan & Alan Cassels (2005).

After you have read these, then make an informed judgement as to who is too old and who is holding the hood.
Jennifer Parker, Australia

Newbie First Class Joined: Dec 31, 2009 Posts: 35

Obviously, everyone can pay attention perfectly! How absurd for some "Doctors" to suggest otherwise. They are greedy whores, haters of America, free enterprise and family.

Imagine! A human being unable to concentrate perfectly, all the time. Why those filthy capitalist, conspiring, criminals a.k.a. psychiatrists!!

My God, man, how would you explain something like that? That's right. You couldn't.

There simply is no way the human brain can function at any level less than total perfection. Every single neuron among the multiple billions of neurons between our ears functions with absolute perfection, firing electrochemical impulses instantaneously across a maze with billions of synapses and dendrites, maintaining precise electrical charges and sufficient sodium ions. No sweat! DUH! These flesh and blood microchips inside the human brain cannot do anything less than fire perfectly! And not one single neuron ever malfunctions.

That is the definition of being human, after all. Our brains perform absolutely without any flaws of any kind.

Newbie First Class Joined: Dec 31, 2009 Posts: 35

IN RESPONSE TO BAUGHMAN'S ACCUSATIONS OF CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY
FRED,
NAME 10 PSYCHIATRISTS YOU REFER TO AS WORSE THAN THE DRUG CARTELS.
IDENTIFY THEM,
SPECIFICALLY.
FIRST, MIDDLE AND LAST NAMES.
GIVE THEIR ADDRESSES
AND PROOF YOUR LIBELOUS, SLANDEROUS, DEFAMING STATEMENTS OF FACT ARE TRUE.
ON YOUR MARK
GET SET
GO
WE ARE WAITING, FRED

NAME JUST TEN!

"The only way the pharma-psychiatry-government cartel differs for the Cali, Medellin, Tijuana, and opium cartels of the world is that the pharma-psychiatry-government cartel target everyone, from cradle to grave—your parents, and grandparents in their nursing home beds, those truly physically ill, adding their never-essential drugs to essential drugs, compromising real medical and surgical treatment, and infants, toddlers, preschoolers and all they can force or court-order to swallow their brain-altering, brain-damaging, “chemical balancers.”

Newbie First Class Joined: Dec 31, 2009 Posts: 35

What do you call it when a person cannot focus his attention sufficiently to function up to his abilities? When he is given the proper medication to help him to tend to the tasks at hand, he has no trouble. He says the medication serves as a pair of glasses. Suddenly, that which appeared fuzzy and chaotic becomes clear and manageable. Now, I, we know that the condition herein described cannot exist, but humor us, pretend it is real. What would you recommend? You may answer, too, Freddie, as long as you make public your earnings from the garbage you sell, you horse's rear-end.

Newbie First Class Joined: Dec 31, 2009 Posts: 35

[quote="QTPIE"]What do you call it when a person cannot focus his attention sufficiently to function up to his abilities? When he is given the proper medication to help him to tend to the tasks at hand, he has no trouble. He says the medication serves as a pair of glasses. Suddenly, that which appeared fuzzy and chaotic becomes clear and manageable. Now, I, we know that the condition herein described cannot exist, but humor us, pretend it is real. What would you recommend? You may answer, too, Freddie, as long as you make public your earnings from the garbage you sell, you horse's rear-end.[/quote

You pathetic horse's rear-end is what I meant.

Newbie First Class Joined: Dec 31, 2009 Posts: 35

QTPIE wrote:

What do you call it when a person cannot focus his attention sufficiently to function up to his abilities? When he is given the proper medication to help him to tend to the tasks at hand, he has no trouble. He says the medication serves as a pair of glasses. Suddenly, that which appeared fuzzy and chaotic becomes clear and manageable. Now, I, we know that the condition herein described cannot exist, but humor us, pretend it is real. What would you recommend? You may answer, too, Freddie, as long as you make public your earnings from the garbage you sell, you horse's rear-end.

Dr. F.

Pray tell, where is that list of addresses and names? We have to issue an APB Freddie, baby, but we can't until we hear from our fearless leader.

Just Arrived Joined: May 12, 2010 Posts: 2

PhD researcher in the field of AD/HD, I find Dr Baughman correct in his stating that as-to-date there is no such clinical test that proves beyond a doubt that AD/HD is more than a set of behaviors deamed as inappropriate to specific situations . Wink

_____________
Symptoms ADHD


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