Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:18 am
This thread is inspired by "M_G's free-will extravaganza" In addition to my own rantings and the nice summary by invixxtus and of course OC giving a contrarian position... I'd like to make a point about free will and the believer. The point is more about freedom of thought and addresses the misconceptions about what freethought is. I don't think it belongs in a free will thread so I post it here.
1. Freethought - What it is...
wiki wrote:
Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or any other dogma. The cognitive application of freethought is known as freethinking, and practitioners of freethought are known as freethinkers.
What is isn't... it's not a free for all anything goes excuse to come up with any old crazy stuff (expanding earths, alien pyramid builders, Xenu ) - that's not to say you can't be witty, funny, serious, downright eff'n crude but if you don't fall within the definition don't pretend you're freethinking when your'e just being a putz.
Now, I have detected an apparent 'orthodoxy' in the non-believer camp too. To be fair, it is easy to fall into the habit of saying we know for sure something is X when we should say that the evidence to date (usually multiple line of evidence) matches our understanding [etc]...
This is not an equivalent position to that of defending faith. Naturalism is used as a
methodology
in science. It is often also subscribed to
philosophically
(such as with Lawrence Krauss IMO) by many scientists through choice and based on experience. They do so however, knowing full well the basis of their thinking (their rational beliefs if you prefer) and the limitations of their philosophical position. They can also tell you the type of observations that would invalidate their beliefs (rabbits in the Pre Cambian, a virus causing some stomach ulcers, tectonic plate shift, neuroplasticity in the brain) and will adjust their views accordingly
Again from wiki;
Quote:
Freethought holds that individuals should neither accept nor reject ideas proposed as truth without recourse to knowledge and reason. Thus, freethinkers strive to build their opinions on the basis of facts.
Applied to religion, freethinkers have generally held that, given presently-known facts, established scientific theories, and logical principles, there is insufficient evidence to support the existence of supernatural phenomena. While many, perhaps most, freethinkers would consider themselves atheists or agnostics, one position consistent with both freethinking and belief in God is philosophical theism.
I've included the bit about 'philosophical theism' as a kind of prod to the other freethinkers here. This is what wiki says;
Quote:
Philosophical theism is the belief that God exists (or must exist) independent of the teaching or revelation of any particular religion. It represents belief in God entirely without doctrine. Some philosophical theists are persuaded of God's existence by philosophical arguments, while others consider themselves to have a religious faith that need not be, or could not be, supported by rational argument. Philosophical theism has parallels with the 18th century philosophical view called Deism.
So, this wiki author is implying that freethinkers can also believe in (a deistic) god (or creative principle) while rejecting all forms of doctrine or dogma and still consider themselves a freethinker. I hope some of you found this suitably annoying
2. Non-freethought (aka Fundamentalism in all it's forms)
What I've noticed generally, here, is that when a person's central goal is the
defense of faith
and of a particular expression of faith, to the point where all thought and action must either be in alignment with or compatible to the scriptures and accepted interpretations of their inherited or accepted faith (especially the Abrahamic faiths)... THEY HAVE LITTLE CHOICE but to accept their position and direction of thought and action.
They can't go beyond the border they've set for themselves. Some set it very tight (YEC's) and some set it quite loose (compatibilists) but there's some piont beyond which they can
not
go.
So, we have people who despite the evidence, prefer to get their health advice from the Pope, who believe that the planet is 6K yrs old, who think it's their duty to shoot doctors or hijack planes and they also claim to support free will. Sure, they subvert their "free will" to that of what they THINK the will of God is, and as we naturalists know, those thoughts are NOT free.
Free will must exist because this is the only way [insert doctrine here] makes sense [etc] AND therefore, we can't be deterministic systems that would make us automatons (how do explain Mozart!) therefore science is wrong [and here is the e-book that gonna tell you why]...
So. Which one has more freedom of thought?
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
infidelbilly Confident Learner
Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 97
Location: Wolverhampton, England. UK
Posted:
Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:18 pm
Can I just mention Zen Buddism at this point? For no other reason than . I just like saying Zen buddism even If I spell it incorrectly.
MockingGods Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 5691
Location: Planet Earth
Posted:
Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:34 pm
Great stuff iPondR... loved it
wiki wrote:
Freethought holds that individuals should neither accept nor reject ideas proposed as truth without recourse to knowledge and reason.
I don't accept any idea as "truth". I accept ideas/opinions/beliefs as
PROBABLE
truths based upon knowledge and reason. This, in my opinion, is what makes my thinking process superior to dogmatically driven ones.
wiki wrote:
Thus, freethinkers strive to build their opinions on the basis of facts.
I agree
wiki wrote:
Philosophical theism is the belief that God exists (or must exist) independent of the teaching or revelation of any particular religion.
Here we go again, no probabilistic qualifier. I'd be fine with it if it stated, a god or gods MIGHT exist. Using the capitalized version of the word god is a dead give away to their position.
_________________ Believing Yahweh could send someone to hell is just like believing Zeus could strike someone with a lightning bolt.
Religion: Born of human imagination, sustained by unapproachable dogma.
iPondR Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:36 pm
infidelbilly wrote:
Can I just mention Zen Buddism at this point? For no other reason than . I just like saying Zen buddism even If I spell it incorrectly.
...and why not!
mmmm
Zennnn
mmmm
[great word, great name for a book e.g.
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
or
Zen and the Art of Going to the Lavatory
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
harrisandreson Just Arrived
Joined: Mar 14, 2010
Posts: 6
Posted:
Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:20 am
what do you mean by that dear
Freethought holds that individuals should neither accept nor reject ideas proposed as truth without recourse to knowledge and reason.
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:07 am
harrisandreson wrote:
what do you mean by that dear
Freethought holds that individuals should neither accept nor reject ideas proposed as truth without recourse to knowledge and reason.
Usually when someone calls me 'dear' odds are that it's NOT going to be fun. (or
Sanuk
) I'd be interested to know what this person was paid to post this brief dia-tripe... complete with spam-link in the signature... just wondering. I far prefer the
ZEN
comment personally. Appropriately blanq
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
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) - that's not to say you can't be witty, funny, serious, downright eff'n crude but if you don't fall within the definition don't pretend you're freethinking when your'e just being a putz.
I far prefer the