Both sets of layered deposits were laid down by the Flood that only Noah and his family survived?
Think about it.
BAA.
*smacksHead*
So that's where all the life on Mars went. God fucked them up too
Seriously though, there's been lots of speculation about water erosion on Mars. I read the brief article that came with the Mars link and didn't see if they're suggesting that hypothesis for this data also?
Dampire Post Noob
Joined: Oct 04, 2005
Posts: 52
Posted:
Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:06 pm
Has the erosion been proven to be caused by water versus some other liquid?
If I recall ago there was a debate about the actual liquid substance . . . but could be mistaking this for another planet.
MockingGods Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 5691
Location: Planet Earth
Posted:
Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:36 pm
Dampire wrote:
Has the erosion been proven to be caused by water versus some other liquid?
If I recall ago there was a debate about the actual liquid substance . . . but could be mistaking this for another planet.
I'm not sure either. There has been much speculation that some of the planets erosion has been caused by water, but I don't' believe it's actually been proven yet and if water, it may be very ancient. From what I understand, much of Mar's more recent erosion is caused by wind, which may be true for this image.
BornAgainAthiest Graduate Thinker
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Posts: 669
Location: Here.
Posted:
Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:28 pm
To Dampire and MG...
Like you guys, I'm doubt that all (or even most of) these layered deposits on Mars are the result of water erosion and deposition. Perhaps so in early Martian history, but as the planet dried out, I reckon that wind-borne debris and/or volcanic ash are responsible for the upper layers. If it was some other liquid, then I'm at a loss to think of what that could be. Sorry!
On a less serious note, I can almost see Ken Ham and his cohorts carefully studying the Nasa maps to see where all the springs of the great Martian deeps burst forth.
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month - on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens opened."
Genesis 7:11. New International Version.
After all, if the layered deposits in Grand Canyon were rapidly laid down by the waters of the Genesis Flood, then the layers on Mars must have been laid down just as quickly, right? I mean, the same process must yield the same results, right? Everything has to have happened within a 6,000 year time-scale, right?
Ok, then... ...what if layered deposits of solidified lava flows are found on Venus or Mercury? Even if 'Occult' science says these indicate billions of years of vulcanism, this can't be right! There must be some mechanism by which millions of tons (thousands of cubic miles) of molten lava could be laid down quickly, solidified and cooled, all within 6,000 years, right?
Ok then... ...what if ice cores are drilled in the Martian polar caps or the ice of Jupiter's or Saturn's moons? If these also show layering on the order of billions of years, this can't be right, can it? There must be some mechanism that'll account for these layers being no more than 6,000 years old, right? I mean, if the atheists are so wrong about the ice cores of Greenland and the Antarctic, then they'll be just as wrong about what's found on Mars or elsewhere, right?
Ok then... ...what if
Ok then... ...what
Ok then...
Ok the...
Ok th...
Ok t...
Ok...
O...
...
..
.
BAA.
_________________ Nietzsche was wrong - god never lived.
marry31 Just Arrived
Joined: Apr 27, 2010
Posts: 1
Posted:
Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:49 am
Dampire wrote:
Has the erosion been proven to be caused by water versus some other liquid?
If I recall ago there was a debate about the actual liquid substance . . . but could be mistaking this for another planet.
Me marry and student of science and technology. I'm also not conformed that all these layered deposits on Mars are the consequence of water erosion and deposition. If we check out the Martian history, then we could build the little bit idea about it. I think its some other liquid rather than water.
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
Posts: 45
Location: Arizona USA
Posted:
Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:30 pm
I'm blown away by that image of Mars! If I didn't know where it was from, I'd say that it's a canyon here on Earth. I remember when pictures of mars consisted of a blurry, reddish-brown orb with black lines crisscrossing it, convincing some that Mars had canals that were dug by an alien race!
_________________ "Love is what separates us from animals!"
"No, Lister, what separates us from animals is that we don't use our tongues to clean our own genitals."
iPondR Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:01 am
HighPriestessLois wrote:
I'm blown away by that image of Mars! If I didn't know where it was from, I'd say that it's a canyon here on Earth. I remember when pictures of mars consisted of a blurry, reddish-brown orb with black lines crisscrossing it,
convincing some that Mars had canals that were dug by an alien race!
BTW - there is a canyon system on Mars that will swallow the whole EARTH... !!! Ten times over !! (mwoo-ha-hah!!)
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
ibn_rushd2 The Learned
Joined: Aug 30, 2004
Posts: 141
Location: Canada
Posted:
Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:12 pm
Liquid methane?
BornAgainAthiest Graduate Thinker
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Posts: 669
Location: Here.
Posted:
Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:07 am
ibn_rushd2 wrote:
Liquid methane?
Hi ibn!
Yes, I see where you're coming from here.
The recent detection of traces of methane on Mars suggests that there's an active source of it now or that there used to be. Perhaps we're only see the last residues of it?
Going here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/methane ... if you click on the 'thermodynamic data' link in the box on the right, you'll see that methane's triple point is -182.48 degrees C.
That's ok for Titan, where the recorded temperature is -179.5 degrees C. Just three degrees from the ideal temperature at which methane can be a solid, a liquid or a gas. But the quoted temperature range for Mars runs from -87 to +20 C, averaging at about -63 C. To put that into human context, the coldest spot on Earth is the Russian Vostok station in Antarctica, where the mercury dropped to an all-time low of -89.2 C.
Yes,
frigging cold
for you or me, but still 100 degrees or so too warm for methane to exist in it's liquid phase.
So, if Mars is too hot now, what about in the past?
This... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox ...might be a possibility. A cooler young Sun would mean that the Frost line [please look up, 'frost_line_(astrophysics)' in Wikipedia] ...was inside or at the orbit of Mars. These days astronomers see the spectral traces of methane ice on some asteroids, but a cooler Sun might have allowed icy methane to build up on Mars. Also, a younger Mars would have been more volcanically active than today. (Have you seen the SIZE of the Martian volcanoes? ) So there might have been catastrophic melt-water floods of the methane ice, just like they get in Iceland, when a volcano erupts under a glacier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/glacial_lake_outburst_flood
Then we might have just the right mechanism for carving out the vast glaciers we see in the orbital photos.
Sound feasible?
Now ibn, if I were a NASA scientist and wanted to check this idea out, I can think of two ways of doing it.
1. Since Mars never had plate tectonics, none of it's crust has been subducted and destroyed. Therefore, if a volcano did cause a canyon-carving flood, there should be some geological trace of it, right where the canyon originates.
2. So far, all that's been detected is water ice and frozen carbon dioxide. No methane ice. But, we do know that methane ice
can
exist under conditions of great cold and great pressure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/methane_ice So, there could still be significant amounts of the methane ice clathrate, way down deep, under the Martian polar caps and/or the permafrost that's been found there. Check these out!
Plenty of scope there for buried deposits of methane ice, I'd say! Catch is, there's no way (at the moment) of calling it either way. Still, who knows?
Thanks,
BAA.
_________________ Nietzsche was wrong - god never lived.
ibn_rushd2 The Learned
Joined: Aug 30, 2004
Posts: 141
Location: Canada
Posted:
Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:12 pm
Yeah, I was extrapolating based on what I knew about Titan. I didn't know before about the triple point though, so today liquid methane may not exist on Mars.
I think scientists are too geared up by the view that water is the key to life on other planets. Earth may be an exception. Thus, they don't think of other possibilities like these other liquids. I once brought up with an astrophysicist at an open house to an observatory that oxygen and water may not be the key, so they are wasting their time. Life could originate somewhere else from xenon, or some other atom entirely. He agreed that we haven't been looking hard enough, and that our perceptions of what happened here are colouring our search elsewhere.
BornAgainAthiest Graduate Thinker
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Posts: 669
Location: Here.
Posted:
Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:15 pm
ibn_rushd2 wrote:
Yeah, I was extrapolating based on what I knew about Titan. I didn't know before about the triple point though, so today liquid methane may not exist on Mars.
I think scientists are too geared up by the view that water is the key to life on other planets. Earth may be an exception. Thus, they don't think of other possibilities like these other liquids. I once brought up with an astrophysicist at an open house to an observatory that oxygen and water may not be the key, so they are wasting their time. Life could originate somewhere else from xenon, or some other atom entirely. He agreed that we haven't been looking hard enough, and that our perceptions of what happened here are colouring our search elsewhere.
Agree, ibn.
I'm sure that exobiologists, astronomers and the technicians who actually get to build the orbiters, rovers and probes who just
love
to run search programs or build detectors that can seek out methane-breathing life. Privately, they probably like to think outside of the box and speculate about silicon-based life forms, crystalline hive-minds, pure energy beings or other exotic stuff. Catch is - they're spending our tax dollars and they've got to justify their time and efforts to the bean counters.
So they've got to play safe and think only
inside
the box. Inside, as in sticking with what we know about - life on Earth. Hence the emphasis on water and oxygen.
Still, if you're clever, there are ways of playing the system in your favor.
Carl Sagan did this in 70's with the Viking probes to Mars. If you go here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos and click on the (moon) option you'll come to the Wiki page on that martian moon. Please read the, '
Future Destruction
' and '
"Hollow Phobos" Suggestion"
' sections.
Now, at this time planetary physicists knew very little about the internal makeup of asteroids. It was generally assumed that they were all giant rocks, rock-and-iron mixes or just solid iron. So it's no wonder they had trouble squaring Phobos' inward-spiraling orbit with their ideas of the huge mass this moon was supposed to have had. That's why Shklovsky's idea of a hollow Phobos didn't seem so fantastic. An asteroid just couldn't be
that
light! Sagan was on the Viking team and made the suggestion to the project managers that they should change the in-flight parameters of one of the orbiters, so that it could pass close enough to Phobos to find out if the inner moon was an artificial object or not.
Naturally, the powers-that-be said, 'No!'
They couldn't justify the change in terms of propellant and such a deviation would seriously affect their options when it came to putting down the lander.
Sagan went away, thought about it for a while and then came back with this counter-proposal.
What if they made a s-l-i-g-h-t change to the probes in-flight track, one that wouldn't affect the lander's options too much? That way, the lander could be set down ok and then the orbiter could use it's left-over propellant to make small, slow changes to it's orbit, ones that wouldn't affect the overall mission but which would bring it's cameras within seeing distance of Phobos.
The final clause of his plan is what sold it!
As a bonus, NASA would get it's first look at an asteroid, without spending millions sending a probe to the asteroid belt for that express purpose. If Phobos was just an asteroid, they'd get a nearly free look at it. If Phobos was some kind of giant, hollow spacecraft, that discovery alone would be worth the effort of changing Viking's mission profile by the small increment he was suggesting. A win / win scenario.
The rest is history!
OK ibn, these days we
do
know that asteroids can be next-to-hollow junk-piles of boulders, dust and loosely-bound debris. We also know that they can have large percentages of ices in them too. Both factors drastically reduce their overall mass.
Anyway, here's a thought for you.
The Dawn probe... http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/ ...is less than a year out from asteroid 4 Vesta. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta 4's a metal/rock mix.
But wait till Feb 2015! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres Please click on the (dwarf planet) option. 1 Ceres is different. What if Cornell is right and there's an under-surface ocean lurking there? If Dawn does find this, then we could be looking at a Sagan/Viking redux. No need to send expensive probes to the far-off, radiation-drenched Jovian moon Europa or the even further and colder Saturnian moon Enceladus. Nope. There could be a subsurface ocean, right there in the asteroid belt. No need for radiation-hardened instrumentation. No need for nuclear-isotope power systems because of the weak sunlight. Better signal strength for the telemetry, given the shorter distance. Shorter delay time for Earth-to-probe communications. Etc., etc.
How about selling that idea to the bean-counters?
Thanks,
BAA.
_________________ Nietzsche was wrong - god never lived.
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There must be some mechanism by which millions of tons (thousands of cubic miles) of molten lava could be laid down quickly, solidified and cooled, all within 6,000 years, right?
) So there might have been catastrophic melt-water floods of the methane ice, just like they get in Iceland, when a volcano erupts under a glacier. 
