Islamic Revolution lives on

The Learned Joined: Jun 10, 2009 Posts: 187

12 June 2009

Hardline Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wins by big majority in a record turn out in general elections.

It seems the person who said "God is dead" made a grave error.

No one can kill the Almighty.

God is alive and kicking.

Islamic Republic of Iran and United States of America are symbols of God.

Iran and US bear testamony that Atheism has failed.

I just want to know why cant Atheists have a revolution and a state of their own.

Why are they always begging religious countries like America to be recognised.

U.S. is a nation under God.

Its time when Atheists had their own uprising and create their own nations under an Ape.

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:17 pm

rayback wrote:

I just want to know why cant Atheists have a revolution and a state of their own.

Why are they always begging religious countries like America to be recognised.

U.S. is a nation under God.

The idea that the US is a nation under god is an assertion not a fact. If you read the constitution you will notice that the only referrence to religion is the first amendment which addresses religion in exclusionary terms. The founders saw fit to create a secular government where subjective religious faith gives way to objetive facts in deciding political matters. Granted, the majority of americans are religous, but religion plays no role in the functioning of our government.

The backlash in Iran brought on by the questionable circumstances of Imadinnerjacket's reelection is further proof, by the way, that there is a strong and growing secular pro democracy movement in Iran. History shows that this spells trouble over the long term for paternalistic theocrats. The Mullahs days are numbered.

The Learned Joined: Jun 10, 2009 Posts: 187

Iranians managed to kick U.S. ass in 1979 Revolution.

I think they will be able to handle pro-US protestors.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9768

rayback wrote:

Iranians managed to kick U.S. ass in 1979 Revolution.

I think they will be able to handle pro-US protestors.

Thanks for demonstrating the same mentality of a soccer hooligan or street gang. That is exactly what the world needs more of, "Us vs them", you sound exactly like Bush Jr, "You're either for or against".

I think it is great that as much as Iran's government tries to squelch free speech, cell phones are compact, and easily hidden and have cameras and web access in Iran. So no matter how much you don't want the world to see that some in Iran don't want to live in a theocracy, technology is defeating Islamic theocracies.

I am also hopeful that that same technology will eventually crack the fascism of North Korea as well.

It is just as sick to me when the Pope acts like he is king of the world and just as sick to me that Iran is run by a handful of selfish clerics. Neither of you are any better than Kim Jong Ill.

If you don't want to be called a fascist, don't act like one.

There are 6 billion people on this planet. You don't own the planet, neither do Christians or Jews or atheists. So stop your antiquated tribal gang cheer leading and get over yourself.

If you insist on "Allah will kick your ass for not kissing his" you are no different to me than if you were Kim Jong Ill.

Sic Semper Tyranus.

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:42 pm

rayback wrote:

Iranians managed to kick U.S. ass in 1979 Revolution. I think they will be able to handle pro-US protestors.

You neglected to respond to my point about the secular foundations of the US political system. I will take from your silence that you concede the point until you decide to address it.

If you are also willing to concede, as you seem to be doing here, that the elections were, in fact, not free and fair and that Iran is essentially a totalitarian state derving its power through the use of force and not through the consent of the people, then the thesis of your opening post is completely demolished.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9768

Quote:

U.S. is a nation under God.

You want to really believe that as a Muslim? If we took a poll of Americans who believed this, do you think they would say, "One nation under Allah" or would they say "Christian Nation" meaning "Under Jesus"? Is that what Muslim Americans should think of themselves?

As for you being a Muslim, lucky for you, the majority of Christians who claim this ARE WRONG. We are one nation under the Constitution which protects Muslims/Christians/Jews/atheists ect ect ect ect.

The Christians who use the cliche "Christian Nation" don't want you as a Muslim being treated as equal. They want you to pay taxes and be happy that their Jesus gave you a country you could be marginalized in and be happy with the back of the bus.

I on the other hand, have the capability to treat the Constitution for what it is. COMMON LAW! Based on the concept of freedom of religion with the responsibility of NEUTRALITY on the issue of religion.

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Article 11 Barbary treated, signed into law by both houses of congress without dissent, and signed into law June 10th 1797 by President John Adams.

I really don't think you want Americans quoting "Under God" because the majority are not Muslims.

Now, being a fan of the founders, without a doubt they were for freedom of religion, BUT they railed against church and state mixing because they KNEW how divisive and destructive it was when mixed. They had the empathy to protect religion because they accepted that we would believe what we believe. They felt the best way to protect freedom was to leave the issue of religion up to the individual.

The Constitution was not ripped out of the bible/Koran/ or OT. The Constitution was written by wise men who valued individuality and pluralism which is why today we have Joe Lieberman(Jew), Keith Elleson(Muslim) and Pete Stark(atheist) serving in our congress.

The greatest words ever written in law history that protects freedom, including the freedom to compete politically were the words, "NO RELIGIOUS TEST".

If you are Muslim and born in America and 35, you can run for President. If you are of Japanese dissent, born in America and 35, you can run for president. If you are female born in America, Muslim and 35 YOU CAN RUN FOR PRESIDENT. If you are Buddhist born in America and 35 YOU CAN run for president. IF you are of Vietnamese dissent, born in America and 35, you can run for president.

BTW, go read the oath of office in the Constitution, the words "So help me God" ARE NOT IN THE TEXT! That is voluntary, NOT MANDATORY!

If you want to shoot yourself in the foot by buying into the cliche "under God" you are a fool because by promoting the mixing of God and government will only benefit the Christian majority, whom many do not see you as a citizen.

If you don't mind sitting at the back of the bus, keep thinking like that. As a minority myself, I am glad the founders never mentioned the Christian God(or any for that matter) as being the owner of the U.S. Constitution, otherwise both you and I would be screwed.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9768

I cant state this enough and I really do hope this sinks in for you Ray. You need to stop mixing issues. I see Christians make the same mistake as well.

You have the right to claim whatever you want. That right, at least in America, is protected by the Constitution. That is a human rights issue and SHOULD BE protected. There should be no dispute on this issue.

HOWEVER, maybe the following example will get you to understand, and hopefully it will for any Christian as well.

IF, FOR EXAMPLE:

I claimed "The sky is purple"

You should protect my right to make that claim.

BUT, if you responded, "No, the sky is blue, not purple"

Does that mean you are oppressing me, or that you disagree?
(end example)

I am not oppressing you by calling Allah fiction, or Jesus fiction for that matter. EVERYONE who lives in this country legally should be protected in the ability to speak their mind.

THAT still is a separate issue than the ability to demonstrate the credibility of a claim.

I do not want your right to claim Allah is real, to be silenced by our government. But, that does not mean I agree that Allah is real, or that I should be silenced for not agreeing with you. You have the right to claim whatever you want, and I have the right to disagree.

SO, instead of belaboring the obvious that we are both free, how about YOU present the evidence you think will convince me to switch my position?

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9768

Quote:

No one can kill the Almighty.

You're right, no one can kill imagination. You have it, Christians have it, and the ancient Egyptians had it in believing that the sun was a thinking being.

No one can kill something that doesn't exist anymore than you could kill Thor or Micky Mouse. I'd love to have the ability to fast forward in time 5,000 years and see what new gods humans invent. I'd bet that the gods of Abraham will be, if the species is still around, be just as dead as belief in Apollo is now. Humans have a tendency to repeat themselves.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9768

bagnasty wrote:

rayback wrote:

Iranians managed to kick U.S. ass in 1979 Revolution. I think they will be able to handle pro-US protestors.

You neglected to respond to my point about the secular foundations of the US political system. I will take from your silence that you concede the point until you decide to address it.

If you are also willing to concede, as you seem to be doing here, that the elections were, in fact, not free and fair and that Iran is essentially a totalitarian state derving its power through the use of force and not through the consent of the people, then the thesis of your opening post is completely demolished.

No, our government is Sectarian(specifically the Christian sect of God belief) You pesky liberals are going to ruin the Christians idea that Jesus wrote the Constitution. Now stop being such a loud mouth atheist and accept your place at the back of the bus. We have to accept that we are second class and merely ATMs for our Christian overlords.

The Learned Joined: Jun 10, 2009 Posts: 187

Brian37 wrote:

I think it is great that as much as Iran's government tries to squelch free speech, cell phones are compact, and easily hidden and have cameras and web access in Iran. So no matter how much you don't want the world to see that some in Iran don't want to live in a theocracy, technology is defeating Islamic theocracies.

Thats right, its the same technology that showed the true colors of
Washginton when pictures from Abu Ghraib torture photos came out.

So much for the "secular foundations" of the US political system.

U.S. tries to censor images of its soldiers abusing and waterboarding detainees.
In this respect, the President of the United States is no different from
the Supreme Ayatollah of Iran.
Bush and Obama also banned release of photos from Guantamano Bay.

Censorship is practised by all parties, religious and secular.

Lets not be dishonest and have double standards.
Its good to judge everyone in same scales.

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:27 pm

rayback wrote:

Thats right, its the same technology that showed the true colors of
Washginton when pictures from Abu Ghraib torture photos came out.

So much for the "secular foundations" of the US political system.

What does Abu Ghraid have to do with fact that religion plays no role in the funtioning of our government?

bagnasty wrote:

You neglected to respond to my point about the secular foundations of the US political system. I will take from your silence that you concede the point until you decide to address it.

If you are also willing to concede, as you seem to be doing here, that the elections were, in fact, not free and fair and that Iran is essentially a totalitarian state derving its power through the use of force and not through the consent of the people, then the thesis of your opening post is completely demolished.

You made some claims in your opining post. Please make an attempt to demonstrate that they are true.

The Learned Joined: Jun 10, 2009 Posts: 187

Which claims do you actually believe are not true?

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:00 pm

rayback wrote:

Which claims do you actually believe are not true?

rayback wrote:

Hardline Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wins by big majority in a record turn out in general elections. It seems the person who said "God is dead" made a grave error. No one can kill the Almighty. God is alive and kicking. Islamic Republic of Iran and United States of America are symbols of God. Iran and US bear testamony that Atheism has failed. I just want to know why cant Atheists have a revolution and a state of their own. Why are they always begging religious countries like America to be recognised. U.S. is a nation under God. Its time when Atheists had their own uprising and create their own nations under an Ape.

The Learned Joined: Jun 10, 2009 Posts: 187

These are all true.

I know CNN may not be making these claims.

But that does not show they are false.

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:56 pm

rayback wrote:

These are all true. I know CNN may not be making these claims. But that does not show they are false.

In what ways do a highly questionable election and a secular constitution support the idea that "God is alive and kicking"? In what way are the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States of America symbols of God (and which god, for that matter? The majority of the American population are Christians.) In what way is the United States a nation "under god" given that our nation is founded on a secular constitution and a history of keeping religion seperate from the workings of government? These are the types of questions you should be answering.

In making the assertions you made in your opening post you have an obligation to accept the burden of proof of showing that they are true. You are continuing on, instead, with a pattern of making assertions and not bothing to support them through the use of reason and evidence. You havent given any signs of being interested in engaging in reasoned discourse, so I am done with you rayback. Troll at the wind..


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