Proof that god lies and is unjust.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 71

Here's the proof that god will judge unfairly on judgement day.

To do so he'd have to apply the same measure of justice to everyone who ever lived, right? The bible seems to confirm this.

Romans 1:18-20, King James Version.
"For the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of god is manifest in them; for god hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead, so that they are without excuse."

Put simply, what this says is...
* You me and everyone else can see that god made the world.
* This truth has been clearly shown to all of us by him.
* So we have no excuse for not believing in him.

Therefore everyone should have believed in him, regardless of when and where they were born, grew up and died. This applies to all the Aztecs, the Inuit, the Australian aboriginals and the 1,000's of 1,000,000's who lived and died before christian missionaries brought god's word to them. It applies to almost all of the human race throughout most of history.

The uncontestable fact that most of the human race was ignorant of jesus and god for hundreds of generations proves that Romans 1:18-20 is a lie.
If it isn't why is there no record of jesus being worshipped by the Maoris, the Celts and the Mayans before the arrival of bible-wielding missionaries?

So if god is going to judge us on this standard then his legal position can be summed up as follows.

"Ignorantia juris non excusa" means, "Ignorance of the law excuses no one." This is the legal measure used by human courts today. It means that if you a break a law you were ignorant of that is no excuse - you must still be tried for that offence. Your guilt or innocence has not been decided until a verdict is reached.

The assumption here is that while you might have been ignorant of a particular law you could have learned about it before you committed the offence and broke this law. If it was impossible for you to have known about this law then once you break it you have no defence and you are automatically guilty. This is a Secret Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_law

Such laws are only passed by governments that are totally unjust.

The facts that most humans were ignorant of god and could not have known about him (despite what the bible claims) means that god is judging them using his own secret law. Hardly just and fair is it?

An unjust god is no god at all. Draw your own conclusions.

BornAgainAthiest.

Just Arrived Joined: Sep 22, 2008 Posts: 2

I found this forum out of curiosity and would like to offer an alternative perspective.

First, this requires that one looks at the Bible purely in the figurative, rather than taking the literal translation that most of Christianity advocates.

Second, one must consider that God is love, and one can be with God through the expirence of love. Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally.

BornAgainAthiest wrote:

Romans 1:18-20, King James Version.
"For the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of god is manifest in them; for god hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead, so that they are without excuse."

What this verse is saying in the figurative sense and with a consideration that the context is thousands of years old is...
- "ungodliness" is the absence of love. The "wrath of God agaisnt all ungodliness" is the pain and suffering caused by ego and fear which is the opposite and absence of love.
- "that which may be known of god is manifest in them" Since everyone has the ability to love and be loved, anyone can expirence the bliss of God and his love and our love among others.
- "they are without excuse" means the pain and emptiness that people feel in their lives is due to the lack of one's unconditional love and allowing one's ego and fear to run their lives instead. Anyone can obtain bliss through love and God...that is what is so amazing that God loves each of us more than anyone can fathom. We don't need the church or rules, all we need is each other and love. He offers love to everyone and no one has an excuse to live in emptiness and pain.

Jesus understood this, and his life reflected it. Too often Christianity is the distorted "religion of Jesus" rather than the "religion of Jesus' way of life". He showed us how to live in God's bliss and love.

Just Arrived Joined: Sep 29, 2005 Posts: 9

[quote="txRNGr"]

"Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally
...that is what is so amazing that God loves each of us more than anyone can fathom."

Just how much did God love the 42 children he had bears maul to death? How much did he love the people he had soldiers run through with swords? How much did he love the thousands of people he drown in the flood?
I could go on and on about how much he loved all the dead people he ordered killed. God is a mass murderer, at least in the bible I read.
He makes Hitler look like a saint!

Just Arrived Joined: Sep 22, 2008 Posts: 2

[quote="Baterboy"]

txRNGr wrote:

"Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally
...that is what is so amazing that God loves each of us more than anyone can fathom."

Just how much did God love the 42 children he had bears maul to death? How much did he love the people he had soldiers run through with swords? How much did he love the thousands of people he drown in the flood?
I could go on and on about how much he loved all the dead people he ordered killed. God is a mass murderer, at least in the bible I read.
He makes Hitler look like a saint!

God does not order people to be killed. Dillusional people who believe they have the blessing of God order people to be killed. Furthermore, do not focus on the materialism of this world. Do you think your body defines who you are? If you lost your leg, would you somehow be less human and less significant? How about if you lost your sight, hearing, speech, mobility? Would that cease your consciousness? Would these ailments make you less you? People only focus on the physical and believe that the mass of organic blobs that walk around this Earth are all there is to us. Is that all you are? An organic blob of cells? Or are you more?

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:34 am

[quote="txRNGr"]

Baterboy wrote:

txRNGr wrote:

"Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally
...that is what is so amazing that God loves each of us more than anyone can fathom."

Just how much did God love the 42 children he had bears maul to death? How much did he love the people he had soldiers run through with swords? How much did he love the thousands of people he drown in the flood?
I could go on and on about how much he loved all the dead people he ordered killed. God is a mass murderer, at least in the bible I read.
He makes Hitler look like a saint!

God does not order people to be killed. Dillusional people who believe they have the blessing of God order people to be killed. Furthermore, do not focus on the materialism of this world. Do you think your body defines who you are? If you lost your leg, would you somehow be less human and less significant? How about if you lost your sight, hearing, speech, mobility? Would that cease your consciousness? Would these ailments make you less you? People only focus on the physical and believe that the mass of organic blobs that walk around this Earth are all there is to us. Is that all you are? An organic blob of cells? Or are you more?

If your a Christian then you should know from the old testament that in some cases he in fact does, but those who execute on behave of god, you call Delusional. As far as consciousness goes, sure without a leg you're a handicap, but still you, but when you loose your brains your ether dead or an organic blob, nothing more to it, now if you're delusional then of course you will star talking about some afterlife business, but that's is only if your delusional.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:21 am

txRNGr wrote:

God does not order people to be killed.

According to the mythology of the bible, this god not only orders people's death (such as the thousands he ordered the Israelites to kill), but kills them outright himself, such as in the Noah's Flood and Sodom and Gomorra myths.

The god of the OT is a malicious, vindictive monster and no matter how you rationalize it, the text mostly stays the same; except in those instances where "Christians" change the text to suit their relative morality.

Quote:

Second, one must consider that God is love, and one can be with God through the expirence of love. Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally.

God is nothing more then a anthropomorphic projection of the human psyche. To say "God is love" only proves the point.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

Quote:

God does not order people to be killed. Dillusional people who believe they have the blessing of God order people to be killed.

So part of the bible is right and part of it is wrong?

Quote:

What this verse is saying in the figurative sense and with a consideration that the context is thousands of years old is...
- "ungodliness" is the absence of love. The "wrath of God agaisnt all ungodliness" is the pain and suffering caused by ego and fear which is the opposite and absence of love.
- "that which may be known of god is manifest in them" Since everyone has the ability to love and be loved, anyone can expirence the bliss of God and his love and our love among others.
- "they are without excuse" means the pain and emptiness that people feel in their lives is due to the lack of one's unconditional love and allowing one's ego and fear to run their lives instead. Anyone can obtain bliss through love and God...that is what is so amazing that God loves each of us more than anyone can fathom. We don't need the church or rules, all we need is each other and love. He offers love to everyone and no one has an excuse to live in emptiness and pain.

That's stretching it a bit far. Was that how it was meant at the time, or are you just applying a modern interpretation?

Quote:

People only focus on the physical and believe that the mass of organic blobs that walk around this Earth are all there is to us. Is that all you are? An organic blob of cells? Or are you more?

Your perceived necessity for a god does not in itself necessitate a god. I would like to think that there wasn't some controlling spirit in the sky watching me, but would that alone mean that there isn't one?

Quote:

If you lost your leg, would you somehow be less human and less significant? How about if you lost your sight, hearing, speech, mobility? Would that cease your consciousness?

Unfortunately, it wouldn't cease one's consciousness. I suppose that you've never seen Metallica's music video for the song 'One', but the film used in the video is about a soldier who loses all those things. His body becomes his own hell and he longs for death.

Quote:

God is nothing more then a anthropomorphic projection of the human psyche. To say "God is love" only proves the point.

Great point. Love is a human emotion. One can scarcely deny that it is useful and good, but it is nevertheless a human emotion projected onto a supernatural being.

Just Arrived Joined: Sep 29, 2005 Posts: 9

[quote="txRNGr"]

Baterboy wrote:

txRNGr wrote:

"Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally
...that is what is so amazing that God loves each of us more than anyone can fathom."

Just how much did God love the 42 children he had bears maul to death? How much did he love the people he had soldiers run through with swords? How much did he love the thousands of people he drown in the flood?
I could go on and on about how much he loved all the dead people he ordered killed. God is a mass murderer, at least in the bible I read.
He makes Hitler look like a saint!

God does not order people to be killed. Dillusional people who believe they have the blessing of God order people to be killed. Furthermore, do not focus on the materialism of this world. Do you think your body defines who you are? If you lost your leg, would you somehow be less human and less significant? How about if you lost your sight, hearing, speech, mobility? Would that cease your consciousness? Would these ailments make you less you? People only focus on the physical and believe that the mass of organic blobs that walk around this Earth are all there is to us. Is that all you are? An organic blob of cells? Or are you more?

The delusion here is God himself. Without the delusion of God, the ancient kings and leaders could not have convinced their people to go slaughter a town or village of people. This has been a tactic used for millinia before the first century. Some of the kings knew very well that no god or gods talked to them, but knew their people were deluded into believing in the gods and would buy their story. The kings actually only wanted the other peoples valuables. This tactic is still in use today.
I don't see the human body as materialistic, as if were the latest toy or fashion. We are organic blobs of cells, ever take biology? It is those blob of cells that gives us our consciousness. You make yourself more by using that consciousness to make your life as good as you can for the time you are alive. This life is all we have and it is a shame that so many people can't come to terms with that.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:55 pm

"God does not order people to be killed. Dillusional people who believe they have the blessing of God order people to be killed. "

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 71

Hello txRNGr and thanks for replying.

I'm sorry that I didn't get back to you sooner, having been travelling last week.

The reason why I initiated this thread is that I was offering proof about god not speaking the truth and acting unjustly. Yes, I'm taking the bible literally and here's why.

Firstly, if the bible is anything less than the 100% perfect truth of god then it cannot be his word and is just the work of men, making it just another book along with all the others that purport to be the one truth.
Secondly, dealing with proofs and facts enables us to live by real, practical and valuable standards and values - surely something worth pursuing.
Lastly and sadly, there are millions who DO take the bible literally and would have all of us live by their beliefs. However, their literalism allows us skeptics to expose the many contradictions in their world view, revealing it for the nonsense it truly is.

So, to cut to the chase txRNGr, I'd like to ask you about your reply below.

txRNGr wrote:

I found this forum out of curiosity and would like to offer an alternative perspective.
First, this requires that one looks at the Bible purely in the figurative, rather than taking the literal translation that most of Christianity advocates.
Second, one must consider that God is love, and one can be with God through the expirence of love. Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally.

BornAgainAthiest wrote:

Romans 1:18-20, King James Version.
"For the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and...
... eternal power and godhead, so that they are without excuse."

What this verse is saying in the figurative sense and with a consideration that the context is thousands of years old is...
- "ungodliness" is the absence of love. The "wrath of God agaisnt all ungodliness" is the pain and suffering caused by ego and fear which is the opposite and absence of love.
- "that which may be known of god is manifest in them" Since everyone has the ability to love and be loved, anyone can expirence the bliss of God and his love and our love among others.
- "they are without excuse" means the pain and emptiness that people feel in their lives is due to the lack of one's unconditional love and allowing one's ego and fear to run their lives instead. Anyone can obtain bliss through love and God...that is what is so amazing that God loves each of us more than anyone can fathom. We don't need the church or rules, all we need is each other and love. He offers love to everyone and no one has an excuse to live in emptiness and pain.
Jesus understood this, and his life reflected it. Too often Christianity is the distorted "religion of Jesus" rather than the "religion of Jesus' way of life". He showed us how to live in God's bliss and love.

You state that your alternative perspective requires looking at the bible from a figurative p.o.v. and not a literal one. You then make the following assertions...
* God is love.
* One can be with god thru the experience of god
* God loves everyone unconditionally
* Ungodliness is the absence of love
* Anyone can experience the bliss of god and his love...
* ...god loves us more than any can fathom
* We don't need church or rules...
* He offers love to everyone...
* ...no one has an excuse to live in emptiness and pain.
* Jesus understood this, and his life reflected it.

Now are we to take your assertions literally (i.e. as provably true / false) or figuratively, where their value is undetermined?

Also, I'd like to draw your attention to the potential problems in taking the bible figuratively. It's all about context.

In the quote the apostle Paul is talking about the wrath of god in terms of judgement, not about living a life of emptiness and pain. Here the emphasis is firmly on what happens to us after our Earthly lives are over. The bible claims that when we are all raised up from the dead we will be judged by god, some of us going to heaven and some going to hell. "They are without excuse" refers to the knowledge of god that he claims he has put into everyone heart. I disputed this when I started this thread, saying that for him to judge everyone on that standard was akin to using a Secret Law - a piece of unlawful, unjust legal trickery.
So, contextually, Romans 1:18 - 20 and my opening message are all about judgement, not a lack of love and bliss.

Reading anything figuratively is all very well but it allows unclear, imprecise thinking to cloud important issues.

I hope that you and I can establish a proper framework for debate and I look forward to your reply.

Thanks again,

BornAgainAthiest.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9384

Deception is ok with God as the saying goes, "The end justifies the means".

I once had my half sister by adoption serve me a "near beer" "non-alcoholic" beer, but I blindly accepted it as real. After 3 of them I was feeling buzzed. It certainly reflects Richard Dawkins "moth to the lightbulb" explanation in "The God Delusion". I sobered up quickly after she told me.

One of the first atheist books I read was George H. Smith's "The Case Against God" which exemplifies this.

Romans. 3. 7-8
"if through my falsehood" (Paul asking permission from god to lie) abounds to his glory, why am I sill being condemned as a sinner? AND WHY NOT DO EVIL that good may come..as some people so slanderously charge us with saying. THEIR CONDEMNATION IS JUST!"

The difference between what Paul does with a magical puppiteer in that fictional book and what real humans do is that there is no magic to human behaivor.

People DO LIE, and not always with malice. If lying is so bad to Christians, what would they do if they were harboring an abused spouse and the mate knocked on the door and asked where she was?

The point is that good and evil is OUTSIDE magic and no deity is needed to understand normal human behavior.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 71

I've just heard about a British television documentary (don't know what channel) on the subject of tv reportage in South America. Apparently during the 70's, when a right-wing government controlled Brazil, there were a number of Secret Laws drafted to clamp down on perceived agitators, terrorists and revolutionaries.

See here for a definition of what a Secret Law is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_law

A small portion of a legal declaration used at this time reads as follows...

"Ignorance of laws passed in secret was no defence."

To me this exactly sums up what god will do on Judgement Day.
Billions of the resurrected dead will say to him, "We had no knowledge of you. How can you condemn us to eternal hellfire for this?"

He'll reply, "My holy book says that I put the knowledge of my existence into your hearts. The fact that you couldn't have known that is no defence." At this point he'll raise his finger to the angels and give them the nod. Then, with a great weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth all of the damned will be cast into the lake of fire.

(In)justice has been done! Mad

BornAgainAthiest.

Intern Joined: Feb 21, 2006 Posts: 217

txRNGr wrote:

...

Also, one must consider that God loves everyone unconditionally.

.

That is not so,
observing a mother dying giving birth
to her fourth or fifth child,
leaving the young children behind without her!...
Please, preach against such a God,
not against the innocent victims
of gods’ violent temperament!…

Intern Joined: Feb 21, 2006 Posts: 217

BornAgainAthiest wrote:

he'll raise his finger to the angels and give them the nod. Then, with a great weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth all of the damned will be cast into the lake of fire.

(In)justice has been done! Mad

BornAgainAthiest.

Good reasoning here.
On the dot!
Excellent point.
That god is an impersonator in a moral circus...
WE shall condemn IT
[IT!] in judgement...!

Just Arrived Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 2

I love cheeses.....


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