Argument from non-belief if God exists

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:43 am

Working on perfecting my argument. This is a variation of the Argument from Divine Hiddenness. I wrote this 9 years ago before I knew what the ADH was. I was looking over my arguments and I saw some room for improvement.

An Argument From Non-belief if God Exists

1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.
2.) If the Christian God exists, he knows what sufficient evidence he can provide for ALL to know that he exists.
3.) However, Not ALL people know that the Christian God exists.
4.) God then, thus far, hasn't provided sufficient evidence for ALL to know that he exists.
5.) God at least wants SOME humans to not know he exists or there may be no Christian God. (from 2,3 and 4)

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:50 am

infidelguy wrote:

1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.

Is there scriptural backing to support him wanting ALL humans to know of his existence, or is this simply an assumption many Christians make?

Quote:

5.) God at least wants SOME humans to not know he exists or there may be no Christian God.

I see now that #5 covers this scenario... seems pretty sound Reg. I suppose if you could find solid scriptural evidence that suggests the Christian God wants everyone to know of his existence, it would tend to reinforce the final conclusion of "no Christian God" or at least a god that isn't omnipotent.

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:42 am

Many Christians assume 1.) is true. Calvinists would of course tell them they are wrong.

Ask a few Christians and see what they say. Whether 1.) is supported Scripturally or not is irrelevant however. I am only addressing those folks that believe that 1.) is true. Which is most Christians.

Thanks for the feedback.

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:38 am

I made this argument once, but the believer said that its the job of christians to go into the world and convert them... bah.

Some also claim that everyone gets enough evidence somehow by looking at the wonder of nature or something like that, its just that they prefer to "choose" not to believe in him in order to live their sinful lives...

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:42 pm

AliTheBandit, you can then respond. But surely God would know that his followers would be wholly insufficient and incapable of converting the whole world. Therefore, God still wants non-Christians to exist.

Their side-stepping didn't help in the least.

As for the second part, I always respond, what evidence is there that is the case, besides another rhetorical claim? Also, prison systems are packed with Christians. They believe in God and yet still lead immoral lives. So, I could become Christian and still live my life exactly the same (which isn't a horrible, immoral life either btw.). No evidence even supports such a statement. These wonders of theirs, I love to point out the BotFly Larvae. Is this that wonder they are talking about?

Lastly, God should know exactly what evidence should be sufficient to even overcome the most stubborn non-believer. I have helped change the minds of thousands of xians over the years. Surely if I can help change the minds of these stubborn creatures.. God can help change mine.

Just Arrived Joined: Aug 19, 2008 Posts: 3

From my experience a christian believer will immediately jump on 1.). They will argue that their god doesn't want people to "know", he wants people to "believe", to have faith. Many preachers have argued that having faith in the unknown is the point of being saved. Accepting a way of life and a god into their life based purely on faith, not knowledge. So although logical minded folks would agree that this is a good argument, many believers will immediately shut down at 1.). Perhaps before you start the argument you define "know", then I think that would make the difference for believers. For example: to know means to have faith in....or just simply to have knowledge of....that way it can't be construed to be defined as to know for certain.... i know, it's just semantics and nit picky, but I believe the argument would be stronger for the die-hard bible literalists. I like it though! Good job!

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

Of course believers never ask why did god give us a rational mind and then tell us not to use it? Wait, they do have a story about a talking snake to explain that one.

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:17 am

dmrobins70 wrote:

From my experience a christian believer will immediately jump on 1.). They will argue that their god doesn't want people to "know", he wants people to "believe", to have faith. Many preachers have argued that having faith in the unknown is the point of being saved. Accepting a way of life and a god into their life based purely on faith, not knowledge. So although logical minded folks would agree that this is a good argument, many believers will immediately shut down at 1.). Perhaps before you start the argument you define "know", then I think that would make the difference for believers. For example: to know means to have faith in....or just simply to have knowledge of....that way it can't be construed to be defined as to know for certain.... i know, it's just semantics and nit picky, but I believe the argument would be stronger for the die-hard bible literalists. I like it though! Good job!

I think Cygnus' response was awesome. Indeed. So God has essentially ill-prepared humans by providing us with reason. God never explains why faith is so important. All religions have some element of faith. Are they equally valid then? I mean, they did use faith after all.

I have never met a single Christian that would argue against One.. until they see the conclusion of the argument, ex post facto.

Also, again, God would know which humans would and wouldn't be able to utilize faith as a way to accept him.

Such a strange theology that asks one to believe with no evidence and blind acceptance.

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:53 am

Here's something from A christian website relating to the issue of what happens to people to if they never learn of God. Take it for what it's worth.
"The Bible is silent regarding a large group of people who could be called "un-knowers"-those who (from our human point of view) do not have the capacity to understand the gospel and who therefore (again from our human viewpoint) do not have the chance to accept or reject Jesus. This group would include aborted babies and other children who die soon after or during birth, the mentally incapable, and others of similar mental inability. We can speculate
that they go to "Abrahams' bosom" (Luke 16:19-31...some speculate if it still exists) or some other "temporary" place before sometime in the future.
However, if we begin to understand who God is, and His attributes, we can begin to perhaps achieve a level of trust in His judgment of these people. God will exercise perfect justice, as only He can do, in determining how eternity will be spent for these situations. "

http://www.evidenceofgod.com/answers/death8.htm

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:56 am

MockingGods wrote:

infidelguy wrote:

1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.

Is there scriptural backing to support him wanting ALL humans to know of his existence, or is this simply an assumption many Christians make?

Quote:

5.) God at least wants SOME humans to not know he exists or there may be no Christian God.

I see now that #5 covers this scenario... seems pretty sound Reg. I suppose if you could find solid scriptural evidence that suggests the Christian God wants everyone to know of his existence, it would tend to reinforce the final conclusion of "no Christian God" or at least a god that isn't omnipotent.

What he said.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

Quote:

Is there scriptural backing to support him wanting ALL humans to know of his existence, or is this simply an assumption many Christians make?

Regardless of what scripture says, that's the god Christians believe in, and that's the god we want to disprove right now.

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:08 pm

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

Is there scriptural backing to support him wanting ALL humans to know of his existence, or is this simply an assumption many Christians make?

Regardless of what scripture says, that's the god Christians believe in, and that's the god we want to disprove right now.

I'm not certain "all" or even "most" Christians take up the stance that God wants everyone to know him, but I could be wrong. Smile

It's very difficult to separate the Christian from the scripture, because without the bible, they have little if nothing to fall back upon. If you remove the bible from their beliefs you basically just have a bunch of superstitious people making shit up, which I'm sure is true in at least some cases. Still, I feel it's important to analyze and attack the actual text then a certain persons or groups interpretation of it, especially if they're misinterpreting or misrepresenting it. This is why I feel scriptural backing in this case (an argument I like and find compelling) would make it more powerful and useful as an argument.

Backing up point #1 with scriptural proofs would make the argument stronger and more compelling.

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:37 pm

Not necessary.. they don't read it anyway. Do a simple survey Mocking.. ask any sincere Christian you know "Does God wants us to know him." They will immediately answer yes. This is truly nothing to debate..

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:51 am

infidelguy wrote:

Not necessary.. they don't read it anyway. Do a simple survey Mocking.. ask any sincere Christian you know "Does God wants us to know him." They will immediately answer yes. This is truly nothing to debate..

Like I said, "I could be wrong" Smile

I still think the argument would be stronger if you could present scriptural backing for point #1. Perhaps when I get a little time I'll do some research.


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