You don't believe in Jesus because you're evil

Newbie Joined: Jul 17, 2008 Posts: 10

I feel a rant coming on.

When I was telling my pastor about five years ago that I was no longer going to be attending church because my faith was no longer tenable, he asked me what the real problem was. I didn’t know what he meant at first. He was the first person to suggest it, and after him would be my father, my grandparents, my sister, my “accountability partners” and a handful of other Christian acquaintances. What he was suggesting was that my disbelief was either (a) a subterfuge, a lie that I was telling myself so that I could go out and sin without any guilt, or (b) that if my disbelief was genuine, it was being caused by the sin in my life.

Of course, all the Christians I knew who were of the most Christ-like ilk didn’t have any better answers to the theodicy problem than he did; couldn’t explain the genocides of the old testament; couldn’t explain why a book that is claimed to be literally true is littered with contradictions and blatant falsehoods, and so on. So if I, the golden-boy turned apostate, couldn’t get real answers to real questions from real Christians such as my pastor, what did my character have to do with anything? I still to this day wonder if he was aware how insulting it was to hear someone you respect and trust tell you that the reason you are no longer confident in your beliefs is that you’re secretly just a bad person. Either being a bad person has made you unable to continue ignoring the inconsistencies and problematic questions in your faith, or you just made up those questions to have an excuse to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

I don’t believe in karma, but it was amazing to be on the other side of the fence for the first time, having the same ad hominem attacks I had made against atheists and apostates for years coming at me. As a religious person, I occasionally felt a sense of resentment towards non-believers. Here they were, indulging in all the pleasures of the flesh when they know (and they know that they know!) through general and special revelation the truth of the gospel! Their lack of belief wasn’t for lack of understanding or knowledge, but simply a sign that they didn’t want to repent. I never once looked at them and saw real people. I just saw sinners who worked day in and day out to avoid the call to repentance.

And there I was, opposite this pastor with whom I had spent hours and hours in one-on-one conversations about faith and theology, and I had become that to him. Fortunately these days, no one who ever made those ad hominem attacks against me would still claim those things. There is one person, who I will probably rant about another day, but for the most part I’ve been fortunate enough to be taken seriously. Certain people in my family know not to speak to me about faith—not because I’m unpleasant, as I’m actually very tactful. But one of my younger sisters mentioned to my mother that she avoids the subject with me because she worries that I might impart to her whatever knowledge that caused me to question and lose my faith. I can respect that boundary, and for what it’s worth I’m just glad she doesn’t believe I’m a bad person just because I’m an atheist.

I think I may pay that pastor a visit to say hello as it’s been almost five years since I’ve seen him, but I don’t think he would want to see me as a contented and confident atheist.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9384

On another board someone asked me, "What are you hiding in your past that caused you to become an atheist".

One could as the same of a Christian, "What are you hiding in your past that caused you to become a Christian".

This is a tired and old tactic theists use to demonize the atheist as having emotional and social problems. The reality is every label of every society and every individual has problems to some degree. In any case life's success or pitfalls is not proof of "poof" good magic or bad magic existing.

Does this guy literally think that a man in a red leotard magically manipulated the neurons in your head to cause you to reject what you once accepted? Or could it be that you examined what you believed only to find it not to be credible? If you give up on Santa, does that mean you hate Santa, or that you merely find the claim to be false.

Lacking problems or having problems in life is not a reason to accept or reject any type of claim. This guy's reaction is nothing more than a deep seeded fear that he might be wrong about his own beliefs. So rather than challenge himself to be introspective and examine his own claims, he falsely attempts to make your deconversion out to be an emotional problem.

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:25 pm

If being a Christian is so great, then why are so many of them in prison? You'd think that having the Holy Spirit would make them the bestest people in the whole world, ever. They might as well have remained unbelievers for all the good Christ did them.

But yeah, I've had that "You just hate God" accusation, as well as "You just want freedom to sin as much as you want to," and "You are full of evil and want to hide from God." Laughing

Kind of hard to hate or hide from something that doesn't exist, and I haven't noticed any desire to, say, murder people or blow up buildings or beat up old ladies and children just because I'm an atheist.

Newbie Joined: Jul 17, 2008 Posts: 10

There's an easy response to your question of why there's so many Christians in prison. Those people aren't real Christians. Neither is Ted Haggard, neither was Jerry Falwell, neither was Jim Bakker... hell, pretty much any Christian who does anything remotely wrong is just conveniently labeled as "not a Christian." My dad is convinced that Calvinists aren't Christian (!)-- which only attests to him not knowing about the heavy themes of predestination and total depravity in both Catholic and Protestant theology (the whole free will thing is an invention of the last 300 years, pretty much).

This is the same argument that Christians give when confronted with statistics from the Barna group and so on that confirm that Christians have the same divorce rates, etc., as the population at large. "Well how many of those people actually believe? I'll bet a lot of them were just raised Christian and haven't really accepted Jesus."

Hahaha... I bet you "were never actually a Christian," Apostatelois. Heard that one lately? Every Christian who knew me back in the bad old days is convinced that I really was a Christian, but anyone who professes belief and was not acquainted with me prior to my deconversion just says I must have never been one to begin with.

Bah, who gives a damn anyways.

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:24 am

According to the Bible, nobody is a True Christian™.

1 John. 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Anyone who claims to be born of God, yet sins, is lying, therefore nobody is born of God because ALL Christians sin--in fact, many of them continue living the same life they always did, the only difference being that they ask Sweet Jesus for forgiveness every time they mess up. But if they were True Christians™, they wouldn't sin at all.

Newbie Joined: Jul 17, 2008 Posts: 10

How did I never see these verses before? I've always been a fan of 1 John... Thanks, I'm going to have to enlighten some people of that next time I get the ad hominem attack thrown at me.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 525

Quote:

True Christians™

How'd you do that?

I've heard some of these attacks before, but none have ever been directed at me.

Quote:

Hahaha... I bet you "were never actually a Christian

This was probably even true of me. I believed all the dogma once upon a time, but I never really lived the message. Once I became atheist, I didn't notice a real change (except that I became interested in philosophy). So I would consider this a complement. I shutter to think I ever was a Christian.

The Learned Joined: Nov 30, 2004 Posts: 122

Newcastlebrownalien wrote:

I feel a rant coming on.

When I was telling my pastor about five years ago that I was no longer going to be attending church because my faith was no longer tenable, he asked me what the real problem was. I didn’t know what he meant at first. He was the first person to suggest it, and after him would be my father, my grandparents, my sister, my “accountability partners” and a handful of other Christian acquaintances. What he was suggesting was that my disbelief was either (a) a subterfuge, a lie that I was telling myself so that I could go out and sin without any guilt, or (b) that if my disbelief was genuine, it was being caused by the sin in my life.

Of course, all the Christians I knew who were of the most Christ-like ilk didn’t have any better answers to the theodicy problem than he did; couldn’t explain the genocides of the old testament; couldn’t explain why a book that is claimed to be literally true is littered with contradictions and blatant falsehoods, and so on. So if I, the golden-boy turned apostate, couldn’t get real answers to real questions from real Christians such as my pastor, what did my character have to do with anything? I still to this day wonder if he was aware how insulting it was to hear someone you respect and trust tell you that the reason you are no longer confident in your beliefs is that you’re secretly just a bad person. Either being a bad person has made you unable to continue ignoring the inconsistencies and problematic questions in your faith, or you just made up those questions to have an excuse to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

I don’t believe in karma, but it was amazing to be on the other side of the fence for the first time, having the same ad hominem attacks I had made against atheists and apostates for years coming at me. As a religious person, I occasionally felt a sense of resentment towards non-believers. Here they were, indulging in all the pleasures of the flesh when they know (and they know that they know!) through general and special revelation the truth of the gospel! Their lack of belief wasn’t for lack of understanding or knowledge, but simply a sign that they didn’t want to repent. I never once looked at them and saw real people. I just saw sinners who worked day in and day out to avoid the call to repentance.

And there I was, opposite this pastor with whom I had spent hours and hours in one-on-one conversations about faith and theology, and I had become that to him. Fortunately these days, no one who ever made those ad hominem attacks against me would still claim those things. There is one person, who I will probably rant about another day, but for the most part I’ve been fortunate enough to be taken seriously. Certain people in my family know not to speak to me about faith—not because I’m unpleasant, as I’m actually very tactful. But one of my younger sisters mentioned to my mother that she avoids the subject with me because she worries that I might impart to her whatever knowledge that caused me to question and lose my faith. I can respect that boundary, and for what it’s worth I’m just glad she doesn’t believe I’m a bad person just because I’m an atheist.

I think I may pay that pastor a visit to say hello as it’s been almost five years since I’ve seen him, but I don’t think he would want to see me as a contented and confident atheist.

oh gawd, I used to use that reasoning against atheists too. It's such a common attack because EVERYone has something in their past. And even if there was an event it doesn't mean that's the "real" reason but just be yet another event that made you think. Some for me was Supernova 1985, 9/11 event, and the Tsunami/Earthquake of 2004. They weren't the actual "reasons" as if I was angry at any god, they were just significant events that gave me pause to think more.

If you watch "The God Who Wasn't There" you'll see the movie ends with this classic christian attack when the school administrator uses it by assuming the host is just using the interview as a way of revenge against his own wrongs he suffered at that school. Classic cop-out. But in a way that's the hosts own fault because he let the administrator ask that. NEVER ever ever ever do that if you're the one doing the interview, or trying to sell something, etc... because he who asks the questions CONTROLS the conversation. And the host (Brian was it?) made that mistake. He had the administrator pinned but then let him who actually asked if he could ask a question (answering a question with a question). At that point he lost the interview. I was soooo pissed that he didn't see that coming but the administrator saw an opportunity and like the snake christians like him are he took it and took control back. If it were a debate instead of an interview the admin. would be declared the victor because of it. BUT kudos to the producers for not editing that out. I think it showed tremendous integrity to show where they were clearly weak and not just where they had a case and the stronger.

So always beware of the ad hominem and non-sequitur.

The Learned Joined: Nov 30, 2004 Posts: 122

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

True Christians™

How'd you do that?

I've heard some of these attacks before, but none have ever been directed at me.

Quote:

Hahaha... I bet you "were never actually a Christian

This was probably even true of me. I believed all the dogma once upon a time, but I never really lived the message. Once I became atheist, I didn't notice a real change (except that I became interested in philosophy). So I would consider this a complement. I shutter to think I ever was a Christian.

That's ok because if Jesus really did exist he'd probably shudder to what religion has created out of his message and words put in his mouth.

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:51 pm

Newcastle... Congrats on making the move. I will share with you my opinion. Christians (and other believers) are dumb. They believe in ghost stories, attach their lives to these stories, and react with resentment if anyone challenges their silly views.

imo the best thing you can do is try and persuade your xian family and friends into questioning their faith. Who knows, a few might even jump ship!

The Learned Joined: Nov 30, 2004 Posts: 122

ApostateLois wrote:

According to the Bible, nobody is a True Christian™.

1 John. 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Anyone who claims to be born of God, yet sins, is lying, therefore nobody is born of God because ALL Christians sin--in fact, many of them continue living the same life they always did, the only difference being that they ask Sweet Jesus for forgiveness every time they mess up. But if they were True Christians™, they wouldn't sin at all.

BINGO! That is a perfect example of evidence that christianity was more about the belief that the flesh is evil and holiness is to be pursued (not unlike some eastern religions) and not on some faith and forgiveness religion. The bible is a collection of contradicting theologies and philosophies which is why it takes so much mental gymnastics and seperate "study guides" to even understand what they claim to believe. No matter what they say they can't claim their belief can be found entirely from the bible, it takes a seperate guide to weave together pieces they've cherry picked.


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