"Respect me and my beliefs!"

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9362

jkorath wrote:

George Carlin is right when he argues that we need to add one more to the 10 commandments:

11. Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

When a religious person keeps talking about their religion around people who don't believe in that religion its rude and impolite. Unless I'm around nonreligious friends or am asked about my beliefs I don't say a word about atheism or being an atheist. They should have the decency to return the favor.

Uh-oh, but their religion commands them to never shut up about it Rolling Eyes

That is unrealistic from a human empathy standpoint. Right or wrong every human has a disire to express their positions, even atheists. It is unreasonable and irrational to expect theists to keep their mouth shut and it is unreasonable and irrational for them to expect us to keep our mouths shut.

What I take offense to is when people preach and when you object to a claim they expect you to shut up. I take offense to people who expect to preach to you and expect you not to raise objections.

Let them spew their hocus pocus all they want, I only get offended when they want to spew it and expect me to remain silent while they do.

In the past 6 years atheism has gained a national spotlight and it is only because people finally came out and challenged the mainstreem. If you want to remain silent that is up to you, but I refuse to be put at the back of the bus because some idiot cant face the fact that ghosts dont knock up girls and human flesh doesnt survive rigor mortis after 3 days.

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:08 pm

Brian37 wrote:

That is unrealistic from a human empathy standpoint. Right or wrong every human has a disire to express their positions, even atheists. It is unreasonable and irrational to expect theists to keep their mouth shut and it is unreasonable and irrational for them to expect us to keep our mouths shut.

I didn't mean for what I said to be taken completely serious. Generally when it comes to topics like this I can't resist being extremely sarcastic Wink

I entirely agree that people should always be free to express their positions whenever they want. Its just that sometimes people express their positions at inappropriate times.

I just mean that its not very polite to blabber on about your religion when you're around people who didn't bring up that topic and don't believe the same things. In other words, religion is a divisive and emotional topic and I, personally, am more at ease if such topics are left aside for the most part.

I suppose what I REALLY meant to get at was hinted at in my last statement. The whole, "My holy text commands me to try to spread my beliefs as much as possible." Most christians are polite enough not to constantly bring up their religious beliefs, but if you listen to a lot of sermons (and I end up hearing a lot of them even today) typically the audience is told they should be constantly trying to spread xianity to all their friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc. In my experience, atheists don't feel any need to proselytize atheism and I personally do not like it when anyone proselytizes me about anything.

Quote:

What I take offense to is when people preach and when you object to a claim they expect you to shut up. I take offense to people who expect to preach to you and expect you not to raise objections.

Let them spew their hocus pocus all they want, I only get offended when they want to spew it and expect me to remain silent while they do.

I'm with you there.

Quote:

In the past 6 years atheism has gained a national spotlight and it is only because people finally came out and challenged the mainstreem. If you want to remain silent that is up to you, but I refuse to be put at the back of the bus because some idiot cant face the fact that ghosts dont knock up girls and human flesh doesnt survive rigor mortis after 3 days.

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:10 am

jkorath wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

That is unrealistic from a human empathy standpoint. Right or wrong every human has a disire to express their positions, even atheists. It is unreasonable and irrational to expect theists to keep their mouth shut and it is unreasonable and irrational for them to expect us to keep our mouths shut.

I didn't mean for what I said to be taken completely serious. Generally when it comes to topics like this I can't resist being extremely sarcastic Wink

I entirely agree that people should always be free to express their positions whenever they want. Its just that sometimes people express their positions at inappropriate times.

I just mean that its not very polite to blabber on about your religion when you're around people who didn't bring up that topic and don't believe the same things. In other words, religion is a divisive and emotional topic and I, personally, am more at ease if such topics are left aside for the most part.

I suppose what I REALLY meant to get at was hinted at in my last statement. The whole, "My holy text commands me to try to spread my beliefs as much as possible." Most christians are polite enough not to constantly bring up their religious beliefs, but if you listen to a lot of sermons (and I end up hearing a lot of them even today) typically the audience is told they should be constantly trying to spread xianity to all their friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc. In my experience, atheists don't feel any need to proselytize atheism and I personally do not like it when anyone proselytizes me about anything.

Quote:

What I take offense to is when people preach and when you object to a claim they expect you to shut up. I take offense to people who expect to preach to you and expect you not to raise objections.

Let them spew their hocus pocus all they want, I only get offended when they want to spew it and expect me to remain silent while they do.

I'm with you there.

Quote:

In the past 6 years atheism has gained a national spotlight and it is only because people finally came out and challenged the mainstreem. If you want to remain silent that is up to you, but I refuse to be put at the back of the bus because some idiot cant face the fact that ghosts dont knock up girls and human flesh doesnt survive rigor mortis after 3 days.

I agree with you that religion is a subject that should be discussed only when both parties have agreed. The desire to share beliefs can be easily controlled by finding safe venues, especially today.

There are forums such as this as well as reliigious as well as other forums that might have religion as a subforum. Then there are discussion groups in the physical where religion is just one of many topics such as the Socrates Cafe discussions. For those who haven't heard of those, they are terrific. Look to see if there is one in your neighborhood.
http://www.philosopher.org/
http://socratescafe.meetup.com/
Google if you need more info yet.

All kinds of discussions, much like a forum but not religion oriented. All are welcome and it is definitely a freethinker's outlet. I like it better than these forums because of the ability to see body language thus there is no fighting such as goes on with some online forums.

They are moderated but only to give people a chance to speak up or to bring it back to topic. Many, probably most, of the people I meet there are probably atheists. The theists vary but the few who are out to convert usually quit coming or trying after a few meetings because the opportunities just aren't there.

Back to this thread, if somebody brings religion up outside a safe venue, then discretion has to be used on how extreme the discussion should get. I myself will choose to change the subject since my purpose is generally nothing to do with religion unless it is to enlighten myself, to learn from another.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9362

Quote:

discretion

I call it "Time, place, and context".

You seem to be more comfortable with library type conversations. I am not. And if we accept that our comfort levels can be different, then the same applies to theists as well. I dont assume that all theists cant handle the heat. I have, in fact, met pleanty of theists who dont take it personally when I blaspheme them with harsh criticism. I know there are theists that know there is a differance between them, the person, and what they claim.

A letter to John Adams from Thomas Jefferson demonstrates this well. Adams was complaining that the media and citizens were raking them over the coals. Jefferson ellequently bitch slapped him basically saying, "WHAT THE F, ARE YOU NUTS? We just spent the past 12 years fighting a tyrant who didnt want us having our own opinion and didnt want us complaining about him".

Jefferson also said, "Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homgage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear".

He had a deity belief and he, if I could debate him, would most likely not be offended if I said, "Thomas, you are full of it". His response would not be, "You hate me". He would say, "Ok, Brian, why do you think I am "full of it".

It is true that one need not be a bull in a china shop 100 percent of the time when it comes to debate. But it is also false to assume that there are no theists capable of seperating the issue of the person from the issue of what the person claims.

So while "discretion" or "time, place and context" are important, it doesnt rule out fenese or bluntness.

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:30 am

Dissident1 wrote:

This is where the argument rages. Why don't I have respect for religious beliefs and values that other people hold to? Just because I don't believe them, supposedly I am to respect that fact that other people do and remain silent about them.

I think the thing you should do is make them answer your question. Why should their religion be respected? Why should any? And should every religion be respected, even the less popular ones?

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:11 am

They probably only want THEIR religion to be respected. I doubt they have any respect at all for Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, etc., whom they undoubtedly mock freely.

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 361

ApostateLois wrote:

They probably only want THEIR religion to be respected. I doubt they have any respect at all for Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, etc., whom they undoubtedly mock freely.

Most wouldn't mock them freely, but they would definitely look at those religions very critically. Some would say because they have been raised to hold those religions as false. I say because they haven't learned to hold those religions as true. Thus, some are perfect freethinkers on the matter.

The Learned Joined: Nov 30, 2004 Posts: 106

Cygnus wrote:

ApostateLois wrote:

They probably only want THEIR religion to be respected. I doubt they have any respect at all for Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, etc., whom they undoubtedly mock freely.

Most wouldn't mock them freely, but they would definitely look at those religions very critically. Some would say because they have been raised to hold those religions as false. I say because they haven't learned to hold those religions as true. Thus, some are perfect freethinkers on the matter.

It's just a different side of the same coin. I was raised LCMS and went to a LCMS school where each week we had "lessons" on other religeons which were just the nonsense the church put out about other religions they deemed as "cults". I call it nonsence but much of what was shoved down our throats about them it turns out simply wasn't true at all. Hell they even had a section on how Lucas was using the new age to create a Jedi cult through his movies. I shit you not. Modern Christianity is BASED on the us vs. them, my way or the highway mentality.

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 361

Quote:

It's just a different side of the same coin.

I was by no means praising them. I was aiming to make bigger hypocrites out of them.

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:49 am

Robocoastie wrote:

It's just a different side of the same coin. I was raised LCMS and went to a LCMS school where each week we had "lessons" on other religeons which were just the nonsense the church put out about other religions they deemed as "cults". I call it nonsence but much of what was shoved down our throats about them it turns out simply wasn't true at all.

Amen to that brother!

I remember all the bullshit they used to say in youth group about other religions. I particularly remember this video that completely caricatured and misrepresented a number of different belief systems. Particularly, I remember the complete and utter misrepresentation of Nietzche's philosophy I had to endure w/ one of those videos. I hardly knew a damn thing about Nietzche at the time, but what little I knew was enough to know they were completely full of shit.

Expecting a christian to give a fair representation of any nonchristian point of view is insanity.

Newbie Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 22

If the truth is considered disrespectful something is wrong with religion.
One of the things religious people do is use their emotions to shut down or win debate regardless of the truth. Atheist are not always right but if they can't even consider differant posibilities they can never get to the truth.
Religions have a long history of not respecting other religions only they often "disrespect" others by torturing and killing them!!
Then they disrespect others by accusing them of being disrespectful just because they disagree.
Vocal "disrespect" should be tollerated but "disrespect" that involves holy wars or inquisitions should not.


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