Open Theism

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:44 am

atheod wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

atheod wrote:

Seekah wrote:

Alright... So I was listening to one of the "Bible Geek" episodes yesterday and Reggie brought up Open Theism to Bob. I hadn't grasped the concept of that before (that God might not be omnipotent and omniscient).

Let me give a bit of recent history on my journey for a moment. I was intrigued by an argument that Reggie made. He brought up the question (I'm paraphrasing here): If God is all-knowing why would he create beings that he knew would "sin" and then punish them? This got me thinking. It didn't make any sense. I was starting to lean a little toward a more agnostic or atheistic position in my belief. (I'm a church-going Roman Catholic as of right now, though I'm questioning).

Well, the Open Theism argument has re-awakened some belief in me. If God isn't all-knowing then it makes more sense that he could punish people, because they have more culpability.

How would you respond to this? How does one argue against it from the Bible? How does an atheist respond to it? I know a lot of people throw out the Bible completely, but if someone could humor me for a but, I would be appreciate it.

Thanks.

(Edit: It was "The Bible Geek" episode #6)

Open theism is why I'm a Christian now.

How can one take the Bible seriously and follow Open Theism? They seem to be at odds.

They only seem at odds to people who've chosen to accept Greek Philosophical notions over common sense.

So you discount the NT in its entirety? Strong Hellenistic influences throughout...

Sound like you're either making god as simply something bigger and stronger than you (in which case I could well be your God) or crossing into panentheism and watering it down into merely a "force". If you're going to weaken your god, why have one?

Shrinking your God to fit a view you like does nothing for me except solidify the view that God is merely a human construct having no more or less value than any other human construct.

Grand Poster Joined: Jan 12, 2004 Posts: 1693

jcgadfly wrote:

So you discount the NT in its entirety? Strong Hellenistic influences throughout...

I accept the NT in its entirety. What I don't do is apply the classical Greek philosophical notion of god(s) to the God of the Christian Bible.

Quote:

Sound like you're either making god as simply something bigger and stronger than you (in which case I could well be your God) or crossing into panentheism and watering it down into merely a "force". If you're going to weaken your god, why have one?

However it may sound, the God of the Christian Bible is both bigger and stronger then me/us.

If you were the one written of in the Christian Bible, you very well could be God. However, I hold no belief that is the case.

Panentheism has similar aspects to what I accept the God of the Christian Bible as. And I don't have to "weaken" a God that was never illogically strong to begin with.

Quote:

Shrinking your God to fit a view you like does nothing for me except solidify the view that God is merely a human construct having no more or less value than any other human construct.

Likewise, inflating God to fit a view you like does nothing for me except solidify the view that your atheism, in regard to the God I worship and accept, is based on a strawman.

Feel free to view your inflated god as merely a human construct. I'll have to agree. I'll keep worshiping the one true God while you're doing that.

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:55 am

atheod wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So you discount the NT in its entirety? Strong Hellenistic influences throughout...

I accept the NT in its entirety. What I don't do is apply the classical Greek philosophical notion of god(s) to the God of the Christian Bible.

Quote:

Sound like you're either making god as simply something bigger and stronger than you (in which case I could well be your God) or crossing into panentheism and watering it down into merely a "force". If you're going to weaken your god, why have one?

However it may sound, the God of the Christian Bible is both bigger and stronger then me/us.

If you were the one written of in the Christian Bible, you very well could be God. However, I hold no belief that is the case.

Panentheism has similar aspects to what I accept the God of the Christian Bible as. And I don't have to "weaken" a God that was never illogically strong to begin with.

Quote:

Shrinking your God to fit a view you like does nothing for me except solidify the view that God is merely a human construct having no more or less value than any other human construct.

Likewise, inflating God to fit a view you like does nothing for me except solidify the view that your atheism, in regard to the God I worship and accept, is based on a strawman.

Feel free to view your inflated god as merely a human construct. I'll have to agree. I'll keep worshiping the one true God while you're doing that.

You worship the God of the Christian Bible. That Bible was written by humans. The description of God you follow was written by humans (being in the human created Bible).

Your God is a human construct as were all the other gods in every myth man created.

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:31 pm

atheod wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

You worship the God of the Christian Bible. That Bible was written by humans. The description of God you follow was written by humans (being in the human created Bible).

Correct

Quote:

Your God is a human construct as were all the other gods in every myth man created.

If you feel strongly enough about that claim, feel free to prove it to me.

You have already conceded it and there is no evidence for your view. Why should I prove it?

All you have is the description of humans of what your god is. How else could they describe your god if they hadn't already created him?

Or are you going to tell me that he always existed and told them about it...no, wait... you got the description of god as eternal from those same humans.

Grand Poster Joined: Jan 12, 2004 Posts: 1693

jcgadfly wrote:

atheod wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

You worship the God of the Christian Bible. That Bible was written by humans. The description of God you follow was written by humans (being in the human created Bible).

Correct

Quote:

Your God is a human construct as were all the other gods in every myth man created.

If you feel strongly enough about that claim, feel free to prove it to me.

You have already conceded it and there is no evidence for your view. Why should I prove it?

I've conceded the obvious fact Bibles are written by humans. I've not conceded the Christian Bible is pure fiction. If you feel strongly enough about your claim, feel free to prove it to me. If that's not enough reason for you to do it, feel free not to. Keep in mind however your lack of evidence isn't going to help me accept atheism again.

Quote:

All you have is the description of humans of what your god is. How else could they describe your god if they hadn't already created him?

An unknown phenomenon. Unless you claim to have a complete understanding of all existence.

Quote:

Or are you going to tell me that he always existed and told them about it...no, wait... you got the description of god as eternal from those same humans.

You don't have to wait, I'm going to tell you what the Christian Bible says which was written by humans. It being pure fiction or nonfiction is another issue.

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 393

I think that jcgadfly's rationale for his nonbelief is:

1) So far, most human religion has been shown to be human assumption and answers created by humans to explain existence.

2) It was from these millinea of assumption and superstition that the concept of 'god' was formed in the human's mind.

3) Therefore, god is more likely nonexistent than existent. This is because humans who speculated on god also speculated on many other things like the geometrical shape of earth, elements, how the sun rises, how earth began, and many other natural phenomena and all of their assumptions and beliefs were proved wrong.

jcgadfly, tell me if this is correct or not.

Of course, this offers no empirical proof like the proof that atheod demands. Real proof would be impossible to get and we may never actually know whether or not there is a god.

I am an atheist not because there is proof that there is no god, but because there is also no reason to believe in god. On the actual existence of god I am agnostic. However, I am atheist because I don't believe IN god.

As for the Christian bible's myths, go to this site:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:02 am

Spot on, Cygnus

I don't deny the possibility of something being called God - I'm agnostic on that as well. As are the theists but many don't choose to admit it.

But Yahweh, the god of the Christian Bible, is a human construct as much as Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc.

What kind of God (other than one of human design) would leave the understanding of him to a book full of contradictions and inaccuracies?

I guess what I'm trying to ask, atheod, is how you can accept that the Bible is written by humans but the thing they're writing about had no genesis in human thought? If possible, I'd like an answer other than "Because he's God - he can do what he wants"

Just Arrived Joined: Jul 05, 2008 Posts: 1

Hey Seekah - you are a sane thinking individual - which is rare today. I've been pondering this view of Open Theism for a while as well. I don't know if I'm an official "Open Theist," but the way I understand this "openness of God" is like this: God knows all things that are KNOW-ABLE" (which is quite a lot). There are some things that are SET IN CONCRETE so to say (such as certain events...sending His Son, Jesus returning again...), and yet there is a realm of FREE WILL OF MAN in which some things are OPEN to going either one way or the other... where each person fits in this vast eternal Story of His.

This thought doesn't negate God's sovereignty. God sets boundaries regarding our volition (this far and no more) and then guides with His love in this process. And yet there is a realm regarding our human will that He doesn't control, nor does he know (though He is involved, guiding, and has a very good idea of where our volition is heading)... for if He would control or know my choices beforehand, this would not be consistent with God's justice - to punish disobedience and reward obedience for which He is fully responsible.

God's eternal purpose is to test the heart of man in order to let this free will play out. With those who choose to believe in Jesus, God grants eternal life. With those believers, those who follow (not all believers are followers), God produces character in us and rewards that character with eternal reward - a place of rulership with Him in His Kingdom to come. With those who choose to not believe, they are still telling God's story: the horrible effects of sin - what it does to ourselves and to the world. We're all co-writing the story; it's just that we get to choose what side of the story we will be on.

And in order to test us and to give us a choice in His story (history), He allows us to make all the final choices in our lives. And by saying that it is I who make those final choices is also saying that He DIDN'T make them for me before I was born. Had He made those final choices for us before we were born, it would have been Him that made the final choice - seeing that His word is the final word in everything.

Also, by finalizing our choices before we would be born, God would defeat the very purpose for which He created us - which is to have a people who willingly (without forcing it on us) believe in Him and then serve Him...who willingly serve Him not just here in this life, but will be rewarded with a place with Him in the Kingdom to come.

His love won my heart about 35 years ago and I've been serving Him ever since. He opened my eyes to Jesus...believing in Him for the free gift of eternal life - saved from eternal separation (i.e. hell... sorry, no purgetory...that's a man-made thing...not Biblical).

Surely there is a mystery in all of this and I'm not claiming to fully comprehend all of God's ways regarding His foreknoweldge. This SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD and THE FREE WILL OF MAN has been a tension throughout the ages. I, perhaps like you, am simply tired of all the shallow arguments from the many Fatalistic Christians who think they've figured it all out; those who say, "Oh this is easy, God knew every choice you would make before you were even born. That's that... and, oh, by the way, you have free will."

And then we wonder why there are so many passive, ineffective Christians today. Fatalistic Christians then become either ineffective, or get disillusioned and confused about the "Justice" of God - the God who prearranged everything...every thought...every deed. In their disillusionment, many just stop pursuing the Lord and His Kingdom...I mean, why do that if He already knows the outcome of my life? Nothing can, in reality, be lost or gained. But that's not how Paul lived. He lived to "gain the prize." and watched out that he would not be "disqualified" for the prize - that prize not being entrance into heaven, for that's a gift. The prize being a grand entrance and co-rulership with Jesus (see 1 Corinthians 9:19-27, 2 Peter 1:10,11 and Revelation 3:21,22)


Create an account	Home · Articles · Downloads · Video Library · Forums · Chat Room · aStore