Why does it always seem that when GOD apologetics always try to rationalize his existence, they can't seem to do it without limiting his power in some way? Like "he's probably more like a spirit" or when talkin about free will, "He only knows what all the possible choices are; not the choices". I mean if he is a God he can supposedly do ANYTHING he wants to, whether he is a spirit or not. Yet if only you look at the world/universe in which we live, we only see the OBVIOUS absence of him.
I place the burden on the faithful to show us where he is. Better yet, I place it on God himself. Where are you? If you care at all; If you love at all; if you EXIST AT ALL. SHOW US! According to you and your followers we appearantly need it.
Cygnus Resident
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 359
Posted:
Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:57 am
Quote:
If you care at all; If you love at all; if you EXIST AT ALL. SHOW US! According to you and your followers we appearantly need it.
Yeah, like give everyone in the world a vision at once. A god who works in mysterious ways is a pretty sorry god.
_________________ "The Jewish-Christian-Muslim is waiting to be free"
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:45 am
Unless of course He has purpose in that, which would blow up your hypothesis. Everything God does and the very way He does it has purpose. Therefore He is not a giant talking face in the sky because there's a purpose.
laffer Newbie First Class
Joined: Sep 05, 2006
Posts: 25
Posted:
Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:12 am
The flying spaghetti monster also has a purpose in not revealing himself so that means we don't have to do anything to justify his existence.
It's all very convenient.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:06 pm
Well, you didn't mention the pink unicorns or gnomes who also don't want to be seen. But of course the silly is silly. Quite different from the Creator of the universe. Now, you're free to make silly as you please. But don't confuse the silly with reality. Denial is a different story altogether.
celedhel Newbie
Joined: May 30, 2008
Posts: 10
Posted:
Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:44 pm
And what makes "God" a reality over pink unicorns, vishnu, brahma, Allah, Ganesha, Joseph Smiths Crazy Mormon Circus, Thor and friends, Superman, The Force(star wars fame), Mr. Hanky The Christmas Poo, Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny, Toothfairy, ... Im serious pick your fantasy. It's all the same unfalsifiable bullshit. I don't get after all this time showing that the bible is basically a crock of shit borrowed from earlier religions that people still fucking believe it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and the word of a REAL ACTUAL BLOODY GOD.
... And I have a portal to another dimension in my bedroom.. but i can't show it to you because you have to have faith it exists.. Stupid.. it's just so GOD DAMNED stupid.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:13 pm
celedhel wrote:
And what makes "God" a reality over pink unicorns, vishnu, brahma, Allah, Ganesha, Joseph Smiths Crazy Mormon Circus, Thor and friends, Superman, The Force(star wars fame), Mr. Hanky The Christmas Poo, Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny, Toothfairy, ... Im serious pick your fantasy. It's all the same unfalsifiable bullshit. I don't get after all this time showing that the bible is basically a crock of shit borrowed from earlier religions that people still fucking believe it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and the word of a REAL ACTUAL BLOODY GOD.
... And I have a portal to another dimension in my bedroom.. but i can't show it to you because you have to have faith it exists.. Stupid.. it's just so GOD DAMNED stupid.
Comparing the Creator to straw men is an easy cop out. Your belief that science will answer all your questions is a false hope. You're not an accident of chance and neither is the universe. It's far less complicated than you want to make it out to be.
celedhel Newbie
Joined: May 30, 2008
Posts: 10
Posted:
Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:01 am
You are correct that we are no accident... We were built over billions of years of mutations over mutations to fit the evironments so we could survive, are STILL evolving now.
All im saying is, what's the difference between your God and any other God or mythological creature/being?
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:19 pm
celedhel wrote:
You are correct that we are no accident... We were built over billions of years of mutations over mutations to fit the evironments so we could survive, are STILL evolving now.
Which, according to your sources, was CAUSED by some random chain of events with no purpose or meaning apart from the events themselves. Either an accidental combination of forces, elements, and materials came together by chance or they didn't. There are no other options.
celedhel wrote:
All im saying is, what's the difference between your God and any other God or mythological creature/being?
My God is your God regardless of your acknowledgment or acceptance or my ability to discern Him. There is only one Creator of the universe and He has revealed Himself to His created beings in many ways. The responsibility to respond to Him is up to the individual. Atheism takes up a position of refusal to acknowledge or respond by explaining away the creation and the calling.
celedhel Newbie
Joined: May 30, 2008
Posts: 10
Posted:
Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:56 am
Missionary wrote:
.....Which, according to your sources, was CAUSED by some random chain of events with no purpose or meaning apart from the events themselves. Either an accidental combination of forces, elements, and materials came together by chance or they didn't. There are no other options....
You are correct again. There are no other options. And you can come to the correct conclusion by not jumping the gun by flying in the face of all knowledge and concluding without evidence that there need be a god.
As if scientist or skeptics ever said there was purpose or meaning behind any of it. Why does there have to be purpose or meaning behind anything?
We, as evolved beings who love and need purpose in everything, always seem to find purpose and meaning in everything without asking the real question. Is there a purpose or meaning to anything? How do we know there is a purpose or meaning anything? From as far as our knowledge can see it, there is no purpose or meaning to anything other than the purpose and meaning with assign to our own lives. We just are.
See the difference between us is after all the scientific observation and constant aquiring of knowledge, you still like to add that one last thing for which there is no reason. God. Why does there have to be one. The universe as far as we can see works just fine without any devine intervention....
But in the end this conversation is really going no where. You lack the ability to even concieve that you MIGHT be wrong. You are dead set on trying to convert me instead of adding anything of value to this discussion. We are just going to go round and round in circles.
Truth is Benign
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3829
Location: USA
Posted:
Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:33 am
Missionary wrote:
My God is your God regardless of your acknowledgment or acceptance or my ability to discern Him.
Your god is imaginary and mine doesn't exist. Those seem like two quite distinct ideologies. Besides, if I conjured up a god it would be a Her. I really don’t care much for the patriarchal gods; they’re much too violent and aggressive.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:15 pm
celedhel wrote:
Missionary wrote:
.....Which, according to your sources, was CAUSED by some random chain of events with no purpose or meaning apart from the events themselves. Either an accidental combination of forces, elements, and materials came together by chance or they didn't. There are no other options....
You are correct again. There are no other options. And you can come to the correct conclusion by not jumping the gun by flying in the face of all knowledge and concluding without evidence that there need be a god.
Well, that's the problem...the adherents of science are
"jumping the gun by flying in the face of all knowledge and concluding without evidence "
that thousands of years of worshiping the Creator is now wrong.
It's funny. Gravity has always been here. At some point, someone said..."Hey..what's this?" Einstein offers a mathematical equation and suddenly people think it explains gravity, cause, origin, purpose, God, man, life, matter, energy. Science finds stuff and talks about it. Maybe it learns the mechanism or maybe it takes a few guesses. But by far the vast majority of the universe and it's mechanisms are unknown. Origin? Science doesn't have a clue.
None of that has anything to do with God creating or how He has set certain principles, properties, and natural laws into motion. It simply means we're finding them and learning about it.
celedhel wrote:
As if scientist or skeptics ever said there was purpose or meaning behind any of it. Why does there have to be purpose or meaning behind anything?
We, as evolved beings who love and need purpose in everything, always seem to find purpose and meaning in everything without asking the real question. Is there a purpose or meaning to anything? How do we know there is a purpose or meaning anything? From as far as our knowledge can see it, there is no purpose or meaning to anything other than the purpose and meaning with assign to our own lives. We just are.
See the difference between us is after all the scientific observation and constant aquiring of knowledge, you still like to add that one last thing for which there is no reason. God. Why does there have to be one. The universe as far as we can see works just fine without any devine intervention....
But in the end this conversation is really going no where. You lack the ability to even concieve that you MIGHT be wrong. You are dead set on trying to convert me instead of adding anything of value to this discussion. We are just going to go round and round in circles.
Truth is Benign
Truth exists and has so from the beginning as has purpose and meaning. The fact that you and others now want to discredit and dismiss the three is telling of the fact that atheists are now concluding truth, purpose, and meaning do not fit in the framework of evolution or atheism.
It's all about me-me-me/now-now-now.
It's not about adding God in the end to fill a gap...science fills the gaps of knowledge with hypothesis and theories. God is before it all and is the one who determines and causes all that science discovers.
To look at the vastness of our universe, the complexity and intricacy, cells of life, DNA and more, then declare there is no God? ... is truly closed minded.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3829
Location: USA
Posted:
Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:10 pm
Missionary wrote:
To look at the vastness of our universe, the complexity and intricacy, cells of life, DNA and more, then declare there is no God? ... is truly closed minded.
To look at all this natural stuff interacting and declare there's a Christian god is absurd. To declare there just might be "intelligence" behind it is a slim, mostly anthropomorphic, wishful-thinking possibility.
bagnasty Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 08, 2003
Posts: 874
Location: NC
Posted:
Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:09 am
missionary wrote:
To look at the vastness of our universe, the complexity and intricacy, cells of life, DNA and more, then declare there is no God? ... is truly closed minded.
If something vast, complex, and intracate must have a designer then the god you assume exists- being vast, complex and intracate itself- must also have had a designer. That designer must have also had a designer, etc. etc. The principle your premiss is based on would lead to an adsurd invinite regress of creator gods. We dont yet know how the universe came into existence, but it clearly cannot be the case that something complex must have come from something else that is complex.
WrathJW Newbie First Class
Joined: May 26, 2008
Posts: 29
Posted:
Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:44 am
Missionary wrote:
celedhel wrote:
And what makes "God" a reality over pink unicorns, vishnu, brahma, Allah, Ganesha, Joseph Smiths Crazy Mormon Circus, Thor and friends, Superman, The Force(star wars fame), Mr. Hanky The Christmas Poo, Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny, Toothfairy, ... Im serious pick your fantasy. It's all the same unfalsifiable bullshit. I don't get after all this time showing that the bible is basically a crock of shit borrowed from earlier religions that people still fucking believe it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... and the word of a REAL ACTUAL BLOODY GOD.
... And I have a portal to another dimension in my bedroom.. but i can't show it to you because you have to have faith it exists.. Stupid.. it's just so GOD DAMNED stupid.
Comparing the Creator to straw men is an easy cop out. Your belief that science will answer all your questions is a false hope. You're not an accident of chance and neither is the universe. It's far less complicated than you want to make it out to be.
Funny, you just typed your response on one of those false scientific hopes. It just blows my mind that we are far more skeptical when choosing a computer or an automobile then when choosing a way of life. Hell, we show more skepticism and ask more questions when choosing a fast food restaurant then when choosing a religion. Most people become Christians and then try to find all the justifications for their beliefs after they are already 100% committed to it. That's just backwards as hell.
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