"Let there be light"

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:27 am

Cygnus wrote:

If god is calling in such a soft voice that not everyone hears him effectively, then is this a really competent god? Why would there be problems with hearing? He's god, why can't he make himself heard?

Apparently, Jesus is a pussy.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Brian37 wrote:

Again, you, like any other god believer of any religion fail to ask yourself one critical question. You really don't need to be here trying to convince us. You can stay and try if you wish, but many here have been where you are at and know exactly what you are "feeling".

You fail to ask yourself, "Is this something I can prove, or merely something I like believing because it makes me feel good".

Your assumption is that I read an ancient book, it sounded so good I decided to do what it says, and somehow that makes me feel good. You think that I "believe" in the book and the God of the book; that I have "feelings" that I associate as confirmation of the "belief".

If that were true, then your conclusion would be correct in that ANY belief in any of the gods, books, or religions will do as it's simply a personal preference like ketchup or mustard.

However, the proof was given to me. I didn't ask for it and I wasn't expecting it. I was a non-believer too. The only one that can prove anything to you or anyone else is God Himself.

Brian37 wrote:

Your "intense" feelings are not evidence.
Tradition is not evidence.
Popularity is not evidence.
Holy books of any religion are not evidence. They are self serving and circular |"My deity is real because my book says so". Your holy book is not the only one out there.

Actually, all that is true...except the bible actually becomes evidence after the fact; it's secondary in a sense. It becomes truth after you receive God. Until then it's essentially nonsensical and meaningless.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Uncertainty wrote:

Don't you ever think about that the fact that there's been thousands of religions, all most all of which claim to hear their god? I mean I would hope that thought at least somewhat pops up when you're trying to prove god with your feelings and whatever is going on in your head.

Thousands is a stretch. Hundreds is more like it. Of those, a handful have been around since ancient times. Most of the rest are some form of early pagan practices; flared up and died out like a match head. The oldest surviving are Hinduism and Judaism. There's only 5 major religions on the planet. So, the dilemma of your statement as though there are thousands and maybe tens of thousands to choose from is really just atheist drama.

If this God interacted with man from the beginning of creation we would expect that 1) the history would stretch back to the beginning and 2) it would still exist today.

That leaves you with Hinduism, Judeao/Christianity, Islam (as a correction of the former) or some form of Baal/pagan worship.

So essentially you have the Hindu gods, Abrahamic God, or Baal.

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:26 pm

Missionary wrote:

Thousands is a stretch. Hundreds is more like it.

Ever take a history course in college? Did you pass it?

Missionary wrote:

Of those, a handful have been around since ancient times. Most of the rest are some form of early pagan practices; flared up and died out like a match head. The oldest surviving are Hinduism and Judaism. There's only 5 major religions on the planet. So, the dilemma of your statement as though there are thousands and maybe tens of thousands to choose from is really just atheist drama.

Christianity has so many subdivisions and fragments that they could be easily be declared individual religions. Many of them (or even most) comfortably declare that they have the one true message, and that others are false. Do some historical research on your particular belief system and don't be surprised when you find out that it sprang into existence over a dispute or conflict, and split from another church as a result.

During my Christian indoctrination, I attended a Christian school. We were told that there were only two churches in town that were acceptable, and attending any other church (even if invited by a friend or family member) would mean big trouble.

Missionary wrote:

If this God interacted with man from the beginning of creation we would expect that 1) the history would stretch back to the beginning and 2) it would still exist today.

Obviously you believe that writing and literacy sprang into existence at the time of "creation". Well, I hate to burst your little bubble, but that's not what happened. Thus, it is impossible for any writing (from any source) to claim a witnesses view of creation. Unless someone made it all up.

Missionary wrote:

That leaves you with Hinduism, Judeao/Christianity, Islam (as a correction of the former) or some form of Baal/pagan worship.

So essentially you have the Hindu gods, Abrahamic God, or Baal.

Yeah let's ignore all the other current religions and focus on the 'big five.' People still worship the Greek gods. People still worship the Nordic Gods. Native Americans still worship the Great Spirit (in spite of Christianity's efforts to stomp it out). Tribes in South America still worship Inca and Aztec gods. Shintoism is still widely practiced in Japan. Shall I go on?

There are literally thousands of religions and god concepts in the world today. I think you are just pointing at the majority of them and saying "Oh, they're just a bunch of Pagans"

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

I've studied history, religion, and church history...I understand your confusion and am not denying it's existence. I'm suggesting to you it's intentional and a diversion. Someone doesn't want you make it through that web of complexity. If that prevents you from seeking or learning truth, it was successful.

slicea1a wrote:

During my Christian indoctrination, I attended a Christian school. We were told that there were only two churches in town that were acceptable, and attending any other church (even if invited by a friend or family member) would mean big trouble.

Then you were in a cult. My guess is JW or Church of Christ...although others could fit that bill like funde-baptists. Knowing God and being bound to religious tradition, doctrines, or practices are two entirely different concepts.

BTW...I'm glad you're free from them.

slicea1a wrote:

Missionary wrote:

If this God interacted with man from the beginning of creation we would expect that 1) the history would stretch back to the beginning and 2) it would still exist today.

Obviously you believe that writing and literacy sprang into existence at the time of "creation". Well, I hate to burst your little bubble, but that's not what happened. Thus, it is impossible for any writing (from any source) to claim a witnesses view of creation. Unless someone made it all up.

Unless the oral record is accurate and factual and this God did indeed speak, reveal, and guide by His Holy Spirit. Then we do have the events and the people involved. We may not have the whole story, or all the hows and whys, but we have everything we need for our choice which is what's important to the matter.

slicea1a wrote:

Missionary wrote:

That leaves you with Hinduism, Judeao/Christianity, Islam (as a correction of the former) or some form of Baal/pagan worship.

So essentially you have the Hindu gods, Abrahamic God, or Baal.

Yeah let's ignore all the other current religions and focus on the 'big five.' People still worship the Greek gods. People still worship the Nordic Gods. Native Americans still worship the Great Spirit (in spite of Christianity's efforts to stomp it out). Tribes in South America still worship Inca and Aztec gods. Shintoism is still widely practiced in Japan. Shall I go on?

There are literally thousands of religions and god concepts in the world today. I think you are just pointing at the majority of them and saying "Oh, they're just a bunch of Pagans"

Well, they are. Religion's roots are Baal, nature, and idol worship; pantheism and polytheism...all pagan. It's reasonable to assume an interactive God to interact from the beginning as opposed to midstream or late in history. That leaves Hinduism and Judaism with Christianity being a fulfillment of the Hebrew God's promises extended to all of mankind.

Now, you're free to claim the relevance of all these minor/local gods. But it's really no more than a weak excuse for denying and deflecting your responsibility to stand accountable to your Creator. If you want to know Him you can without anyone's help, church, or book. Why? Because He is the one seeking you.

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:35 pm

Missionary wrote:

I've studied history, religion, and church history...I understand your confusion and am not denying it's existence. I'm suggesting to you it's intentional and a diversion. Someone doesn't want you make it through that web of complexity. If that prevents you from seeking or learning truth, it was successful.

slicea1a wrote:

During my Christian indoctrination, I attended a Christian school. We were told that there were only two churches in town that were acceptable, and attending any other church (even if invited by a friend or family member) would mean big trouble.

Then you were in a cult. My guess is JW or Church of Christ...although others could fit that bill like funde-baptists. Knowing God and being bound to religious tradition, doctrines, or practices are two entirely different concepts.

BTW...I'm glad you're free from them.

We finally agree on something. Wow

Missionary wrote:

Unless the oral record is accurate and factual and this God did indeed speak, reveal, and guide by His Holy Spirit. Then we do have the events and the people involved. We may not have the whole story, or all the hows and whys, but we have everything we need for our choice which is what's important to the matter.

Actually, oral records are not accurate. The book of Exodus tells of the Hebrews leaving Egypt and settling in the promised land. It was an oral tradition that eventually got written down. That story, over generations of tale telling, became a mass exodus involving thousands of people that kicked everyone's ass on the way to the promised land. Just like Chinese Whispers... The more times you tell it, the more it changes.

Missionary wrote:

slicea1a wrote:

Yeah let's ignore all the other current religions and focus on the 'big five.' People still worship the Greek gods. People still worship the Nordic Gods. Native Americans still worship the Great Spirit (in spite of Christianity's efforts to stomp it out). Tribes in South America still worship Inca and Aztec gods. Shintoism is still widely practiced in Japan. Shall I go on?

There are literally thousands of religions and god concepts in the world today. I think you are just pointing at the majority of them and saying "Oh, they're just a bunch of Pagans"

Well, they are. Religion's roots are Baal, nature, and idol worship; pantheism and polytheism...all pagan. It's reasonable to assume an interactive God to interact from the beginning as opposed to midstream or late in history. That leaves Hinduism and Judaism with Christianity being a fulfillment of the Hebrew God's promises extended to all of mankind.

Now, you're free to claim the relevance of all these minor/local gods. But it's really no more than a weak excuse for denying and deflecting your responsibility to stand accountable to your Creator. If you want to know Him you can without anyone's help, church, or book. Why? Because He is the one seeking you.

The point I was making was not a weak excuse. It was to point out that you were incorrect in placing all the ancient religions under a single blanket called Paganism. Each belief was unique as the god they worshiped. Each and every one of them was considered a religion in it's own right. You just stripped all that down and said it was only one belief system.
Until God shows up at my front door with a six pack I won't believe in him

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:20 am

Missionary wrote:

Someone doesn't want you make it through that web of complexity.

Clears his throat... puts on his best crazy eyed, Dana Carvey, church lady impersonation...

"Can you say SATAN! "

This stuff just kills me Laughing

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:36 am

Missionary wrote:

You HAVE heard His voice. Just like you hear your own voice, the stored voices of people who have impacted your life, as well as spoken voices and environmental sounds that you are constantly identifying, translating, and commenting on. Like the running commentary that never ends of you expressing thoughts, opinions, likes, and dislikes on everything you see, hear, and do.

Consider moral dilemmas where you're forced to choose between right and wrong, will I get caught or get away with it? Should I or shouldn't I? Ever argued with yourself? What about the thoughts you don't want to think about? Why won't some of those go away and how do you control them? Old hurts and scars? Grudges? Ever get an idea or thought that seemingly came from nowhere?

You may be hearing more voices than you're willing to admit.

If the God of the Bible is the source of your morality, stay away from me. there's too big a risk of me ticking you off and you following in Yahweh's footsteps and killing me in a vicious, psychotic manner.

Grand Poster Joined: Jan 12, 2004 Posts: 1693

Cygnus wrote:

Their god has to be the three O's

No he doesn't.

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:53 am

atheod wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

Their god has to be the three O's

No he doesn't.

Only if you've disregarded the descriptions of God in the Bible. If you have, what's your God like?

Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 425

atheod wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

Their god has to be the three O's

No he doesn't.

If you're talking about Missionary's god, then yeah he does.

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:08 pm

Quote:

In order to state "Let there be light", surely light had to already exist, otherwise how could it be referred to ?

Maybe he just made it up on the spot, both the thing and the word to describe the thing. He could have just as easily said, "Let there be blurghzhnitz," and blurghzhnitz would have come into being. I am not sure what a blurghzhnitz is, though. It might be some kind of salami, or perhaps a variety of diatomaceous rock.

Quote:

All I know is? Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice..." I know he's calling everyone. The trouble is hearing and answering.

The thing about sheep is, they don't think very hard about anything. They just blindly follow the leader, with no clue that the leader might not know where he's going, either. Why would God want unthinking, unquestioning sheep? Also, sheep get made into mutton, so I don't think I want to be a sheep, thank you very much.


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