Here's my take on the Evidential Argument From Evil. It is a bit long. But i thought it was appropriate considering the debate going on in the Freewill thread:
Here's my take on the Evidential Argument From Evil. It is a bit long. But i thought it was appropriate considering the debate going on in the Freewill thread:
The entire argument is from the humanistic importance/superiority perspective. You assume you have rights and entitlement as a human. You assume you deserve explanations and reasons. You assume suffering is evil as opposed to evil causes suffering. You assume THIS LIFE is what is important. You assume human superiority over all life.
I don't hear you complaining about the difficulties associated with the life of the Emperor Penguin and how the male almost starves to death in the sub-arctic winter while balancing an egg between his feet.
I don't hear you crying over the evil lightening strikes that cause wildfires to slaughter tens of thousands of innocent trees each year. Or the brutality of fish cannibalism. The dandelion-grass wars. The fox genocide of hen houses. Or even the human caused extinction of hundreds of species.
It's all me-me-me.
Well, there's a reason we live in a hostile world and humans aren't the only victims. In fact, we're the primary culprits. We're destroying the planet and each other. We hate, insult, fight, war, steal, invade, and compel. You think slavery was abolished? We ARE slaves and we're STILL oppressed. That was the whole point.
The history of human slavery and oppression is nothing more than an illustration of our spiritual condition and need of emancipation. We're slaves to sin and we're oppressed by the evil that sin creates. The only freedom comes from the Deliverer who leads us out of slavery and sets us free for life...eternal life.
Do we temporarily suffer now? Yeah. Is it brutal? yes. Why? To understand that we don't want this to last forever. To see that we need someone to free us. To know that there's hope and to take hold of the One reaching out to us.
The only alternative is to accept the neo-darwinist sci-fi story of society being beneficial to evolutionary survival. But that's not what we see is it? Nope. Society is rife with infighting and only groups together to war with the outsiders. Those two enemies team up when another skin color threatens or some ideology group crops up.
Science can't even begin to explain the mess humans have made of this world. But evil does explain it and the CAUSE is sin. There is a cure but each person has to agree to accept it. The problem is? Most don't want to believe it exists. They'd rather complain, accuse, and demand.
After all, human supremacy is king and demands rights and entitlement.
slicea1a Confident Learner
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posted:
Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:59 pm
Missionary wrote:
The entire argument is from the humanistic importance/superiority perspective. You assume you have rights and entitlement as a human. You assume you deserve explanations and reasons. You assume suffering is evil as opposed to evil causes suffering. You assume THIS LIFE is what is important. You assume human superiority over all life.
I DO have rights as a human being. Women have rights as human beings. People of any skin color have rights as human beings. They gained those rights when the old laws of God were cast aside and HUMAN RIGHTS replaced them. That must really burn your toast. Women must be subservient. Slaves must obey masters. Those who work on the Sabbath are to be put to death. Yeah, your perfect word of God brought Utopia to the Ancient World.
Missionary wrote:
I don't hear you complaining about the difficulties associated with the life of the Emperor Penguin and how the male almost starves to death in the sub-arctic winter while balancing an egg between his feet.
Now THAT'S dedication. More power to him. He could kick that egg off the iceberg and go get laid, but he stays the course and protects his young. Evolution in action.
Missionary wrote:
I don't hear you crying over the evil lightening strikes that cause wildfires to slaughter tens of thousands of innocent trees each year. Or the brutality of fish cannibalism. The dandelion-grass wars. The fox genocide of hen houses. Or even the human caused extinction of hundreds of species.
It's all me-me-me.
A collection plate is NOT all us-us-us
Missionary wrote:
Well, there's a reason we live in a hostile world and humans aren't the only victims. In fact, we're the primary culprits. We're destroying the planet and each other. We hate, insult, fight, war, steal, invade, and compel. You think slavery was abolished? We ARE slaves and we're STILL oppressed. That was the whole point.
The history of human slavery and oppression is nothing more than an illustration of our spiritual condition and need of emancipation. We're slaves to sin and we're oppressed by the evil that sin creates. The only freedom comes from the Deliverer who leads us out of slavery and sets us free for life...eternal life.
You don't know much about the history of slavery. Casting off dogmatic beliefs is like loosening the shackles. Casting off blind faith is like breaking those chains.
Missionary wrote:
Do we temporarily suffer now? Yeah. Is it brutal? yes. Why? To understand that we don't want this to last forever. To see that we need someone to free us. To know that there's hope and to take hold of the One reaching out to us.
Cast away our chains and have a yoke placed upon us? Sounds like a deal to me!
Missionary wrote:
The only alternative is to accept the neo-darwinist sci-fi story of society being beneficial to evolutionary survival. But that's not what we see is it? Nope.
I'm not clear what you're saying here -- rephrase please
Missionary wrote:
Science can't even begin to explain the mess humans have made of this world.
Maybe you should read some Scientific Journals and Articles. Scientists have been finding causes for disasters and have found solutions for many of them.
Missionary wrote:
But evil does explain it and the CAUSE is sin. There is a cure but each person has to agree to accept it. The problem is? Most don't want to believe it exists. They'd rather complain, accuse, and demand.
After all, human supremacy is king and demands rights and entitlement.
The question isn't people don't want to believe sin exists. The fact is sin DOES NOT exist. People who believe in sin have to believe in a cure. People like you offer only one solution (on pain of death).
That's like cutting someone with a razor then offering them to buy a bandage from you (quoting Dan Barker). We don't need a razor treatment from you just so we can buy your brand of Band Aids. Thanks, but no thanks.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:18 am
slicea1a wrote:
I DO have rights as a human being. Women have rights as human beings. People of any skin color have rights as human beings. They gained those rights when the old laws of God were cast aside and HUMAN RIGHTS replaced them. That must really burn your toast. Women must be subservient. Slaves must obey masters. Those who work on the Sabbath are to be put to death. Yeah, your perfect word of God brought Utopia to the Ancient World.
You THINK you have rights. You BELIEVE you have freedom. You're under law and you have zero control over it. The problem is? Corrupted self-serving men do.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
I don't hear you complaining about the difficulties associated with the life of the Emperor Penguin and how the male almost starves to death in the sub-arctic winter while balancing an egg between his feet.
Now THAT'S dedication. More power to him. He could kick that egg off the iceberg and go get laid, but he stays the course and protects his young. Evolution in action.
The penguin behaves according to its given nature and inherent instincts to fulfill their purpose while humans behave in a destructive manner that threatens their own species. I don't hear your outrage over the wholesale slaughter of apes, gorillas, and chimps in the wild or their captivity in zoos and circuses for your entertainment.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
I don't hear you crying over the evil lightening strikes that cause wildfires to slaughter tens of thousands of innocent trees each year. Or the brutality of fish cannibalism. The dandelion-grass wars. The fox genocide of hen houses. Or even the human caused extinction of hundreds of species.
It's all me-me-me.
A collection plate is NOT all us-us-us
Is money all that stands between you and God? Keep your money, who told you He needed it?
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Well, there's a reason we live in a hostile world and humans aren't the only victims. In fact, we're the primary culprits. We're destroying the planet and each other. We hate, insult, fight, war, steal, invade, and compel. You think slavery was abolished? We ARE slaves and we're STILL oppressed. That was the whole point.
You don't know much about the history of slavery. Casting off dogmatic beliefs is like loosening the shackles. Casting off blind faith is like breaking those chains.
Where's your outrage over Chinese slave and child labor? What does that have to do with your rejection of God? What you think your casting off is actually the pardon that frees you. You're confusing religion with knowing God. There's a difference. Faith isn't blind, again that's a religious confusion on your part.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Do we temporarily suffer now? Yeah. Is it brutal? yes. Why? To understand that we don't want this to last forever. To see that we need someone to free us. To know that there's hope and to take hold of the One reaching out to us.
Cast away our chains and have a yoke placed upon us? Sounds like a deal to me!
You're already a slave...to sin and death. The deal being offered is to become an adopted child of God and receive eternal life. If you think you hate the suffering now? You won't like eternal separation from God one bit.
You know, if we were discussing sub-human employment conditions who would you blame for workers suffering, injury, and death?
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
The only alternative is to accept the neo-darwinist sci-fi story of society being beneficial to evolutionary survival. But that's not what we see is it? Nope.
I'm not clear what you're saying here -- rephrase please
Who is responsible and culpable for mans slavery and suffering? The condition of the earth? Crime and war? Hate and indifference? Pollution and destruction?
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Science can't even begin to explain the mess humans have made of this world.
Maybe you should read some Scientific Journals and Articles. Scientists have been finding causes for disasters and have found solutions for many of them.
Really? It that what you believe? Talk about duped. Tell me about the solutions for disaster that man has solved. What time is the next earthquake, tsunami, volcano, tornado scheduled for and how are they preventing it?
Oh, you mean the "run like hell from the scene of the disaster once it hits" solution?
How much knowledge does science possess that is 100% certain compared to the amount that is unknown in the universe? If we can't accurately predict weather, what makes you think science understands caused-causes?
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
But evil does explain it and the CAUSE is sin. There is a cure but each person has to agree to accept it. The problem is? Most don't want to believe it exists. They'd rather complain, accuse, and demand.
After all, human supremacy is king and demands rights and entitlement.
The question isn't people don't want to believe sin exists. The fact is sin DOES NOT exist. People who believe in sin have to believe in a cure. People like you offer only one solution (on pain of death).
That's like cutting someone with a razor then offering them to buy a bandage from you (quoting Dan Barker). We don't need a razor treatment from you just so we can buy your brand of Band Aids. Thanks, but no thanks.
Evil exists and man doesn't have the cure. It's like asking a coke head to lead the DEA's war on drugs. Your accusation is pointing at the wrong target...you've cut yourself and others. It's your nature. Man is doing what he does best...hate and destroy anything that interferes with me-me-me.
slicea1a Confident Learner
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posted:
Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:50 am
Missionary wrote:
You THINK you have rights. You BELIEVE you have freedom. You're under law and you have zero control over it. The problem is? Corrupted self-serving men do.
SliceA1A: Mr Congressman, can I stand on a corner and say anything I want and not be thrown in jail?
Congressman: Yes, you have a RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH
SliceA1A: Can I print and distribute fliers and pamphlets stating the same thing?
Congressman: Yes, you have a right for FREEDOM OF THE PRESS
SliceA1A: Can I attend a church of my choice or choose not to attend a church of your choice?
Congressman: Yes, you have the right of FREEDOM OF RELIGION
SliceA1A: Do I think I have these rights or are they real?
Congressman: [chuckles] Of course they are real! People protect their rights all the time in court rooms!
SliceA1A: Are these rights a belief or are they law?
Congressman: These rights are law.
SliceA1A: Are you or I corrupt or self serving in having these rights?
Congressman: No. Try living without them in another country; there you'll see corruption and self serving en masse.
Missionary wrote:
The penguin behaves according to its given nature and inherent instincts to fulfill their purpose while humans behave in a destructive manner that threatens their own species. I don't hear your outrage over the wholesale slaughter of apes, gorillas, and chimps in the wild or their captivity in zoos and circuses for your entertainment.
I haven't been at a zoo or circus in decades, I don't recall any animals being brought to the big top and being slaughtered in front of cheering crowds. It's a circus not the Colliseum of Rome.
Missionary wrote:
Is money all that stands between you and God? Keep your money, who told you He needed it?
George Carlin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o&feature=related
The language is a little strong but being exposed to something other than bleached and sterilized church approved language is good for you. It helps you understand that yours is not the only way to look at life
Missionary wrote:
Where's your outrage over Chinese slave and child labor? What does that have to do with your rejection of God? What you think your casting off is actually the pardon that frees you. You're confusing religion with knowing God. There's a difference. Faith isn't blind, again that's a religious confusion on your part.
I reject God like you reject Santa Claus. You have made it clear that not knowing God is worthy of eternal pain and torture, is that faith or religious belief?
I have spent a lot of time making people aware of child labor, both in our country and abroad. It shocks people but it makes them aware, and maybe those people will take action to help put an end to it. God won't put an end to child labor so it's up to me (an atheist) to do something about it.
Missionary wrote:
You're already a slave...to sin and death. The deal being offered is to become an adopted child of God and receive eternal life. If you think you hate the suffering now? You won't like eternal separation from God one bit.
Believe in God or He'll kill you. He loves you and wants to spend eternity with you but cross him with your disbelief and he won't hesitate to give you an eternity of unbearable pain and suffering, while those who chose to believe in Him will chuckle and say "Told ya so"
This is not the action of an all loving deity. This is the action of power hungry men who want complete obedience from a population who are willing to sacrifice freedom and thought and replace it with blind faith. I can see it, why can't you?
How can I be seperate from an onmipresent deity?
Missionary wrote:
You know, if we were discussing sub-human employment conditions who would you blame for workers suffering, injury, and death?
I would say that the person who put those workers in that position is responsible. You would say it's part of God's plan for the Universe.
Missionary wrote:
Who is responsible and culpable for mans slavery and suffering? The condition of the earth? Crime and war? Hate and indifference? Pollution and destruction?
The Bible condones slavery. It tells how to keep plunder from slaughtered populations and how to separate captured virgin girls between God's soldiers and Israeli priests. It tells how to punish those who break God's laws like picking up sticks on the Sabbath or talking back to your parents. It makes no hesitations in declaring that Jews are the chosen people of God and forbids them from mingling with other races (opposite of what happened in Nazi Germany but with similar results). I can't cover the pollution part of your post except that a pillar of fire and a burning bush doesn't do the ozone layer any good.
Missionary wrote:
Really? It that what you believe? Talk about duped. Tell me about the solutions for disaster that man has solved. What time is the next earthquake, tsunami, volcano, tornado scheduled for and how are they preventing it?
I live in Nebraska and deal with tornadoes all the time. Without science's gift of DOPPLER RADAR to locate severe weather more people will get hurt.
Missionary wrote:
Oh, you mean the "run like hell from the scene of the disaster once it hits" solution?
I'll run from disasters, you stay and pray. We'll see who survives
Missionary wrote:
How much knowledge does science possess that is 100% certain compared to the amount that is unknown in the universe? If we can't accurately predict weather, what makes you think science understands caused-causes?
What knowledge does any religion have that is 100% accurate? Nothing. If there was knowledge that was 100% accurate it wouldn't be religion. It would be science. It sounds like you are using the old "god of the Gaps" argument where we have limited knowledge of a field of science and you say "Oh, God did it". Don't cry rivers when science finds a solution and it didn't involve God.
Missionary wrote:
Evil exists and man doesn't have the cure.
Only in fairy tales. Jews can live lives that are moral. Atheists can volunteer to help homeless people. Buddhists can feed starving people. Muslims give alms to orphans and widows. But because they don't agree with your narrow vision of God they are all hell bound and they deserve it. Under that same belief, I can murder, rape, steal, swear, sleep with my neighbor's wife, and sleep in on Sundays but if I have JEEZUUS everything is forgiven.
Missionary wrote:
It's like asking a coke head to lead the DEA's war on drugs. Your accusation is pointing at the wrong target...you've cut yourself and others. It's your nature. Man is doing what he does best...hate and destroy anything that interferes with me-me-me.
I'm thinking of all the times when my life was interfered with and I can't recall anyone that I have destroyed as a result. I mean, people who stand in line in front of me at McDonald's are interfering with my immediate need for french fries. I didn't destroy any of them. I don't even hate them.
We live in a society that is governed by laws that dictate what is right and wrong. The Bible dictates laws that rely not on rights and privilages but the arbitrary rule of God and the religious castes. Murder is illegal in the USA but God tells his people to murder entire kingdoms if they get in your way. Rape is illegal in the USA but God says if it happens in the city its adultery and the woman should be stoned.
Before you respond to any of these points please do a little research on what I have said. It sounds like you are just attacking points based on what you heard in church, not on actual facts.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:32 am
Missionary wrote:
The entire argument is from the humanistic importance/superiority perspective.
... and your's is the invisible, magic pie in the sky perspective.
Quote:
But evil does explain it and the CAUSE is sin.
Nothing makes me laugh harder then the "sin did it" argument; simple but straight forward Christianized hilarity.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:58 pm
slicea1a wrote:
SliceA1A: Mr Congressman, can I stand on a corner and say anything I want and not be thrown in jail?
Congressman: Yes, you have a RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH
If you believe you can even reach, much less speak to, a congressman? You're dreaming. Granted, you may get through to a 3rd tier lackey and receive a canned response letter...but he'll be nowhere to be found when the US enacts emergency marshal law in the next 9-11 type event. The Patriot Act made your freedom an illusion.
Your politicians don't care about you. And yes, gov't is corrupted. Trusting it is like believing cockroaches will help your food crumb problem.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
The penguin behaves according to its given nature and inherent instincts to fulfill their purpose while humans behave in a destructive manner that threatens their own species. I don't hear your outrage over the wholesale slaughter of apes, gorillas, and chimps in the wild or their
captivity
in zoos and circuses for your entertainment.
I haven't been at a zoo or circus in decades, I don't recall any animals being brought to the big top and being slaughtered in front of cheering crowds. It's a circus not the Colliseum of Rome.
You skimmed out captivity. You disapprove of human captivity and condone captivity of animals? Animal testing? Scientific experimentation? What makes you think humans are so special to hold rights and entitlements over ANY species or form of life??
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Where's your outrage over Chinese slave and child labor? What does that have to do with your rejection of God? What you think your casting off is actually the pardon that frees you. You're confusing religion with knowing God. There's a difference. Faith isn't blind, again that's a religious confusion on your part.
I reject God like you reject Santa Claus. You have made it clear that not knowing God is worthy of eternal pain and torture, is that faith or religious belief?
It's a warning of peril from God as in "WARNING!! Lack of oxygen results in asphyxiation!" The absence of God is death, darkness, unrest because He alone is Life, Light, Peace. Atheists cry "Don't threaten me!" but if God's warning wasn't made? You cry "NO FAIR!! God didn't warn us!". hypocrites.
slicea1a wrote:
I have spent a lot of time making people aware of child labor, both in our country and abroad. It shocks people but it makes them aware, and maybe those people will take action to help put an end to it.
There's a difference between talking, doing, and hoping someone else is doing. I spend a great deal of time in China; your vocal advocacy ain't working.
slicea1a wrote:
God won't put an end to child labor so it's up to me (an atheist) to do something about it.
Evil exists in God's absence and is evident in a world that rejects God. He allows it to be seen and experienced that many will turn to Him for the solution. Your empty claim of assistance is what it is.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
You're already a slave...to sin and death. The deal being offered is to become an adopted child of God and receive eternal life. If you think you hate the suffering now? You won't like eternal separation from God one bit.
Believe in God or He'll kill you. He loves you and wants to spend eternity with you but cross him with your disbelief and he won't hesitate to give you an eternity of unbearable pain and suffering, while those who chose to believe in Him will chuckle and say "Told ya so"
This is not the action of an all loving deity. This is the action of power hungry men who want complete obedience from a population who are willing to sacrifice freedom and thought and replace it with blind faith. I can see it, why can't you?
How can I be seperate from an onmipresent deity?
You're understanding of omnipresence is flawed. Your choice to reject Him is free will. The consequence is to be granted your choice of wanting to remain separated from God. You've reduced it to a quibble of words while God calls you continuously out of His love for you. All the while, you choose to stand with arms folded and chin jutted out in arrogant defiance.
God won't force you to choose Him, that isn't love.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
You know, if we were discussing sub-human employment conditions who would you blame for workers suffering, injury, and death?
I would say that the person who put those workers in that position is responsible. You would say it's part of God's plan for the Universe.
So diminish the answer and beg the question to deflect blame. People place others in harms way for their own benefit/gain with indifference to their well being. Man's self-serving and egocentric nature is the dominate behavior pattern and the root cause is sin.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Who is responsible and culpable for mans slavery and suffering? The condition of the earth? Crime and war? Hate and indifference? Pollution and destruction?
The Bible condones slavery.
No, it doesn't.
slicea1a wrote:
It tells how to keep plunder from slaughtered populations and how to separate captured virgin girls between God's soldiers and Israeli priests.
Where?
slicea1a wrote:
It tells how to punish those who break God's laws like picking up sticks on the Sabbath or talking back to your parents.
The sentence for breaking any commandment of God is death. Why would a lessor created being want to assert the opposite behavior of a perfect being? The good news is that God lovingly corrects and disciplines, offers atonement for transgressions, and forgiveness of sins. When that is repeatedly rejected what is left but the original sentence?
How many times can a criminal stand in front of a judge and claim "sorry...mistake...didn't know" until the judge finally sends him away?
slicea1a wrote:
It makes no hesitations in declaring that Jews are the chosen people of God and forbids them from mingling with other races (opposite of what happened in Nazi Germany but with similar results).
Israel was chosen and they were instructed not to mingle. Both had purposes that I doubt you understand based on your other comments. But I have no idea what that has to do with Nazis.
slicea1a wrote:
I can't cover the pollution part of your post except that a pillar of fire and a burning bush doesn't do the ozone layer any good.
Maybe the most ignorant statement thus far. Was this an attempt at humor or something?
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Really? It that what you believe? Talk about duped. Tell me about the solutions for disaster that man has solved. What time is the next earthquake, tsunami, volcano, tornado scheduled for and how are they preventing it?
I live in Nebraska and deal with tornadoes all the time. Without science's gift of DOPPLER RADAR to locate severe weather more people will get hurt.
That's not what you said earlier but I don't blame you for lowering the goalpost back to reality. Science hasn't solved anything concerning disasters as we have no control over the universe much less our planet. We know so little about it but then of course there are those who believe they know it aill.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Oh, you mean the "run like hell from the scene of the disaster once it hits" solution?
I'll run from disasters, you stay and pray. We'll see who survives
Define survive. You see, what you fail to recognize is that you're dieing. You're on death row facing judgment. The tornado that you think you escaped was a temporary stay of execution in hopes you accept the pardon. God is rooting for your freedom while you arrogantly cry "go ahead and try it you futha-mucka!". That isn't going to get you far. Surrender is winning while fighting is certain defeat.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
How much knowledge does science possess that is 100% certain compared to the amount that is unknown in the universe? If we can't accurately predict weather, what makes you think science understands caused-causes?
What knowledge does any religion have that is 100% accurate? Nothing. If there was knowledge that was 100% accurate it wouldn't be religion. It would be science. It sounds like you are using the old "god of the Gaps" argument where we have limited knowledge of a field of science and you say "Oh, God did it". Don't cry rivers when science finds a solution and it didn't involve God.
You mean the scientist of the gaps who fills missing knowledge with sci-fi stories. Religion is 100% false....at least you see that much. That has nothing to do with knowing your Creator who is the One who determines and causes everything science observes and studies. Just because they learn how God sustains something is not to be confused with having the knowledge of how and why it exists. Science finds stuff. They don't create energy, matter, or life from nothing.
slicea1a wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Evil exists and man doesn't have the cure.
Only in fairy tales. Jews can live lives that are moral. Atheists can volunteer to help homeless people. Buddhists can feed starving people. Muslims give alms to orphans and widows. But because they don't agree with your narrow vision of God they are all hell bound and they deserve it. Under that same belief, I can murder, rape, steal, swear, sleep with my neighbor's wife, and sleep in on Sundays but if I have JEEZUUS everything is forgiven.
Atheists helping the homeless hasn't cured homelessness. Africa is starving, orphans languish in deplorable conditions, and whoever rejects God will be allowed to do so. Otherwise, you're accusation would be "We're FORCED to love God!...We're HOSTAGES!!"
slicea1a wrote:
quote="Missionary"]It's like asking a coke head to lead the DEA's war on drugs. Your accusation is pointing at the wrong target...you've cut yourself and others. It's your nature. Man is doing what he does best...hate and destroy anything that interferes with me-me-me.
I'm thinking of all the times when my life was interfered with and I can't recall anyone that I have destroyed as a result. I mean, people who stand in line in front of me at McDonald's are interfering with my immediate need for french fries. I didn't destroy any of them. I don't even hate them.[/quote]
You're innocent of hurting another person physically, emotionally, or spiritually? You've NEVER committed any wrong whatsoever against another?
slicea1a wrote:
We live in a society that is governed by laws that dictate what is right and wrong. The Bible dictates laws that rely not on rights and privilages but the arbitrary rule of God and the religious castes.
They aren't arbitrary regardless of your ability to comprehend their meaning or purpose. You have no rights before God as a created being. Everything is granted to you by love, mercy, and kindness. You on the other hand demand entitlement, explanation, and privileges from the Creator of the Universe! As opposed to humbling yourself before your Creator and acknowledging that He is greater and worthy of yor trust to follow Him and obey His voice.
So, you can pound on your chest all you like and make demands. The arrogance of it all is what you fail to see.
slicea1a wrote:
Murder is illegal in the USA but God tells his people to murder entire kingdoms if they get in your way.
No He doesn't. Show me where you think God has murdered or ordered the murder of one single person.
slicea1a wrote:
Rape is illegal in the USA but God says if it happens in the city its adultery and the woman should be stoned.
You've been reading too many atheist websites. You can accept their interpretations and strict literal renderings if it suits you.
slicea1a wrote:
Before you respond to any of these points please do a little research on what I have said. It sounds like you are just attacking points based on what you heard in church, not on actual facts.
I'm a missionary not a religious devotee. I follow Christ and study His Word and am aware of the tired claims you've made from ignorance. I'm not trying to insult you with that, rather call it what it is. Because you haven't come to these conclusions on your own but are agreeing with lists you've read of so-called contradictions, atrocities, and errors.
So, don't represent yourself as having stumbled across some perplexing verse that caused your study of the Word to become a question mark and your genuine interest walking with God to be derailed. You're simply offering excuses from atheist apologetics as an intellectually lazy and spiritually dishonest lack of interest that you don't even put forth the effort.
slicea1a Confident Learner
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posted:
Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:14 pm
Missionary wrote:
If you believe you can even reach, much less speak to, a congressman? You're dreaming. Granted, you may get through to a 3rd tier lackey and receive a canned response letter...but he'll be nowhere to be found when the US enacts emergency marshal law in the next 9-11 type event. The Patriot Act made your freedom an illusion.
Your politicians don't care about you. And yes, gov't is corrupted. Trusting it is like believing cockroaches will help your food crumb problem.
I have a friend of the family who happens to be a Senator. Not only do you believe in an invisible sky daddy you also have a X-Files outlook on Government.
Missionary wrote:
You skimmed out captivity. You disapprove of human captivity and condone captivity of animals? Animal testing? Scientific experimentation? What makes you think humans are so special to hold rights and entitlements over ANY species or form of life??
Do you disapprove of human captivity? Shall we empty out our prisons?
Yes, we do have the right to use animals for food, because other animals use animals for food. I eat meat because it is natural for me to do so. We also have the right to use animals for scientific experiments to improve the overall quality of life. If this bothers you, then quit using medicine and deodorant. Well, quit using medicine.
Missionary wrote:
Where's your outrage over Chinese slave and child labor? What does that have to do with your rejection of God? What you think your casting off is actually the pardon that frees you. You're confusing religion with knowing God. There's a difference. Faith isn't blind, again that's a religious confusion on your part.
Faith is completely and unquestionably blind. Believing in something with no evidence to support it is BLIND FAITH.
Missionary wrote:
It's a warning of peril from God as in "WARNING!! Lack of oxygen results in asphyxiation!" The absence of God is death, darkness, unrest because He alone is Life, Light, Peace. Atheists cry "Don't threaten me!" but if God's warning wasn't made? You cry "NO FAIR!! God didn't warn us!". hypocrites.
The only way this line of reasoning works is if Hell existed outside of God's reach. Then he would be actually trying to save people from a horrible place that he has no control over. But we both know that Hell was created by God for the sole purpose of TORTURING non-believers for eternity. Now God's message is "Worship me OR ELSE!" Would you call that a threat? This God certainly is not what you describe him to be because of this.
Missionary wrote:
There's a difference between talking, doing, and hoping someone else is doing. I spend a great deal of time in China; your vocal advocacy ain't working.
If my efforts aren't helping then YOU DO IT. Walk into the nearest sweatshop in China, break out a few windows,kick down the door, and let the kids out.
Missionary wrote:
Evil exists in God's absence and is evident in a world that rejects God. He allows it to be seen and experienced that many will turn to Him for the solution. Your empty claim of assistance is what it is.
This again. Evil and Sin exist only in religious dogma.
Missionary wrote:
You're understanding of omnipresence is flawed.
No it isn't. God is omnipresent so he is EVERYWHERE. He is in Hell, Heaven, New York, Brazil, Venus, Alpha Centauri, and in my dirty laundry.
Missionary wrote:
Your choice to reject Him is free will. The consequence is to be granted your choice of wanting to remain separated from God.
You can't be seperate from God. He is omnipresent. I don't have free will to reject him because his is omniscient and he KNEW ahead of time that I would be an atheist
Missionary wrote:
You've reduced it to a quibble of words while God calls you continuously out of His love for you. All the while, you choose to stand with arms folded and chin jutted out in arrogant defiance. God won't force you to choose Him, that isn't love.
He's done a crappy job proving his love for me. Probably because he doesn't exist.
Missionary wrote:
So diminish the answer and beg the question to deflect blame. People place others in harms way for their own benefit/gain with indifference to their well being. Man's self-serving and egocentric nature is the dominate behavior pattern and the root cause is sin.
Back to sin again.
slicea1a wrote:
The Bible condones slavery.
Missionary wrote:
No, it doesn't.
Col 3:22 You slaves must obey your earthly masters in everything you do. Try to please them all the time, not just when they are watching you. Obey them willingly because of your reverent fear of the Lord.
Eph 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
Tts 2:9 Slaves must obey their masters and do their best to please them. They must not talk back
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
It tells how to keep plunder from slaughtered populations and how to separate captured virgin girls between God's soldiers and Israeli priests.
Where?
Read the whole story in Numbers Chapter 31. If you still believe your God is holy and just then you really are a piece of work.
Missionary wrote:
The sentence for breaking any commandment of God is death. Why would a lessor created being want to assert the opposite behavior of a perfect being? The good news is that God lovingly corrects and disciplines, offers atonement for transgressions, and forgiveness of sins. When that is repeatedly rejected what is left but the original sentence?
How many times can a criminal stand in front of a judge and claim "sorry...mistake...didn't know" until the judge finally sends him away?
Not just commandments. There are Mosaic laws that deal with homosexuals, disobedient children, wearing perfume reserved for priests, remaining uncircumcised, being overweight because of gluttony, the list goes on and on. All these laws were punishable by DEATH by the Lord's command. But he loves you.
Missionary wrote:
Israel was chosen and they were instructed not to mingle. Both had purposes that I doubt you understand based on your other comments. But I have no idea what that has to do with Nazis.
"We are God's chosen people" is practically the same as saying "We are the master race"
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
I can't cover the pollution part of your post except that a pillar of fire and a burning bush doesn't do the ozone layer any good.
Maybe the most ignorant statement thus far. Was this an attempt at humor or something?
Attempt, bah. It WAS funny
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
I live in Nebraska and deal with tornadoes all the time. Without science's gift of DOPPLER RADAR to locate severe weather more people will get hurt.
That's not what you said earlier but I don't blame you for lowering the goalpost back to reality. Science hasn't solved anything concerning disasters as we have no control over the universe much less our planet. We know so little about it but then of course there are those who believe they know it aill.
Okay then, how about smallpox? That was disasterous. Polio?
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
I'll run from disasters, you stay and pray. We'll see who survives
Define survive. You see, what you fail to recognize is that you're dieing. You're on death row facing judgment. The tornado that you think you escaped was a temporary stay of execution in hopes you accept the pardon. God is rooting for your freedom while you arrogantly cry "go ahead and try it you futha-mucka!". That isn't going to get you far. Surrender is winning while fighting is certain defeat.
Then I better hear a phone ring from the Governor's office. What, no ring? Well, without any proof that I am on death row means that I am not on death row.
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
Only in fairy tales. Jews can live lives that are moral. Atheists can volunteer to help homeless people. Buddhists can feed starving people. Muslims give alms to orphans and widows. But because they don't agree with your narrow vision of God they are all hell bound and they deserve it. Under that same belief, I can murder, rape, steal, swear, sleep with my neighbor's wife, and sleep in on Sundays but if I have JEEZUUS everything is forgiven.
Atheists helping the homeless hasn't cured homelessness. Africa is starving, orphans languish in deplorable conditions, and whoever rejects God will be allowed to do so. Otherwise, you're accusation would be "We're FORCED to love God!...We're HOSTAGES!!"
You've almost convinced me to stop helping people. My efforts without the almighty judgemental God are all for naught. All the clothing I've donated, all the food drives I've pitched in for, have not put an end to homelessness. Maybe Jesus could do that. Why don't you ask him.
Are you saying that people born into poverty and suffering is because they don't believe in God? Your High and Mighty Moral Standing is starting to crack.
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
I'm thinking of all the times when my life was interfered with and I can't recall anyone that I have destroyed as a result. I mean, people who stand in line in front of me at McDonald's are interfering with my immediate need for french fries. I didn't destroy any of them. I don't even hate them.
You're innocent of hurting another person physically, emotionally, or spiritually? You've NEVER committed any wrong whatsoever against another?
You said DESTROY ANYTHING that interferes with me and I claim that I have destroyed NOTHING. Now you whittle it down to hurting someone?
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
We live in a society that is governed by laws that dictate what is right and wrong. The Bible dictates laws that rely not on rights and privilages but the arbitrary rule of God and the religious castes.
They aren't arbitrary regardless of your ability to comprehend their meaning or purpose. You have no rights before God as a created being. Everything is granted to you by love, mercy, and kindness. You on the other hand demand entitlement, explanation, and privileges from the Creator of the Universe! As opposed to humbling yourself before your Creator and acknowledging that He is greater and worthy of yor trust to follow Him and obey His voice.
So, you can pound on your chest all you like and make demands. The arrogance of it all is what you fail to see.
If you haven't read Numbers chapter 31 do it now and tell me honestly if God is Love, Mercy, and Kindness. I'll wait.
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
Murder is illegal in the USA but God tells his people to murder entire kingdoms if they get in your way.
No He doesn't. Show me where you think God has murdered or ordered the murder of one single person.
Read the first few books of the Bible, especially Exodus.
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
Rape is illegal in the USA but God says if it happens in the city its adultery and the woman should be stoned.
You've been reading too many atheist websites. You can accept their interpretations and strict literal renderings if it suits you.
Read the latter half of Deuteronomy 22 and get back to me with your comments. God loves you.
Missionary wrote:
slicea1a wrote:
Before you respond to any of these points please do a little research on what I have said. It sounds like you are just attacking points based on what you heard in church, not on actual facts.
I'm a missionary not a religious devotee. I follow Christ and study His Word and am aware of the tired claims you've made from ignorance. I'm not trying to insult you with that, rather call it what it is. Because you haven't come to these conclusions on your own but are agreeing with lists you've read of so-called contradictions, atrocities, and errors.
So, don't represent yourself as having stumbled across some perplexing verse that caused your study of the Word to become a question mark and your genuine interest walking with God to be derailed. You're simply offering excuses from atheist apologetics as an intellectually lazy and spiritually dishonest lack of interest that you don't even put forth the effort.
I'm not offended by being called ignorant. But now I have provided you with some eye opening reading material in your own bible. Before you answer this post I hope you took the time to read through them. You will discover that I am not providing verses out of context, since you will have the opportunity to read entire chapters instead of just a few short lines.
I didn't become an atheist by listening to soundbytes and reading bumper stickers. I dug up my answers in the Holy Bible and theological beliefs. God doesn't exist. If he did exist, he is not the loving and merciful deity you want him to be.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:56 am
Missionary wrote:
You cry "NO FAIR!! God didn't warn us!". hypocrites.
A god isn’t warning anyone. It is only people of your ilk doing the warning and it’s been going on for centuries. It’s unimpressive and frankly unbelievable to anyone with even a shred of common sense. You don’t scare me and neither does this mythical god represented in your holy book. No amount of veiled, unrealistic threats can produce belief. I can’t be scared into believing in something that is so obviously absurd.
And what about free will? If this threat was realistic, how can I choose freely with essentially a gun being held to my head and told I MUST believe or suffer the consequences? That’s not freedom of choice, that’s coercion of the highest magnitude.
Your beliefs sir are blatantly ridiculous.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:05 am
Missionary wrote:
No He doesn't. Show me where you think God has murdered or ordered the murder of one single person.
If the fable of the Noah's flood were true, this god obviously murdered countless people. We can however give it absolution here because it didn't actually happen as portrayed in this book of holy myth.
So essentially Missionary is right here; a god that doesn’t exist can’t commit murder.
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:23 am
MockingGods wrote:
Missionary wrote:
No He doesn't. Show me where you think God has murdered or ordered the murder of one single person.
If the fable of the Noah's flood were true, this god obviously murdered countless people. We can however give it absolution here because it didn't actually happen as portrayed in this book of holy myth.
So essentially Missionary is right here; a god that doesn’t exist can’t commit murder.
True, but after the philosophical style of imminent critique, the story of the the flood is pretty damning.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:47 am
kmisho wrote:
True, but after the philosophical style of imminent critique, the story of the the flood is pretty damning.
Indeed. I do however find it important when critiquing a myth, to call it a myth.
Here’s another fable where it could easily be construed, had it happened as portrayed, that the biblical god murdered.
Quote:
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.
As far as I know, death isn't a legitimate punishment for mocking someone, and yet that’s exactly what the god of the bible does.
