Open Theism

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:03 am

Alright... So I was listening to one of the "Bible Geek" episodes yesterday and Reggie brought up Open Theism to Bob. I hadn't grasped the concept of that before (that God might not be omnipotent and omniscient).

Let me give a bit of recent history on my journey for a moment. I was intrigued by an argument that Reggie made. He brought up the question (I'm paraphrasing here): If God is all-knowing why would he create beings that he knew would "sin" and then punish them? This got me thinking. It didn't make any sense. I was starting to lean a little toward a more agnostic or atheistic position in my belief. (I'm a church-going Roman Catholic as of right now, though I'm questioning).

Well, the Open Theism argument has re-awakened some belief in me. If God isn't all-knowing then it makes more sense that he could punish people, because they have more culpability.

How would you respond to this? How does one argue against it from the Bible? How does an atheist respond to it? I know a lot of people throw out the Bible completely, but if someone could humor me for a but, I would be appreciate it.

Thanks.

(Edit: It was "The Bible Geek" episode #6)

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

You have in fact exposed a gaping hole in your faith. If you’re willing to accept the fact that one of the main tenets of your faith is incorrect, what’s causing you to hold on to the remaining tenets of your faith? What reason would God have to punish any of us? He created us, and whether he knew it at the time or not we have massive flaws. Instead of punishing us for the errors of his design (with eternal damnation) why doesn’t he correct our flaws? Is he not able to or does he enjoy condemning people for their failure to meet his standards?

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:41 am

Well, I guess if you admit that God is not omnipotent, you can basically say that everything wrong in the world is because of his weakness/inability to change it- which really makes God pretty inconsequential, because he can do "Anything except what he cannot do". Takes him from all powerful to insignificant- sort of in an odd reversal of the God of the Gaps argument, whereby the more gaps you have, the bigger the god that fills them.

Newbie First Class Joined: Jan 08, 2008 Posts: 27

An arguement for it from the bible, where God's foresight was wrong (and He was quite shocked):
Isaiah 5-2:
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
5-4:
"What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Argument against it from the bible:
1John 3-20:
...for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

The old testiment is full of examples of A. God asking questions and B. God changing his mind. Both indicate a lack of omnipotence (assuming you take the bible seriously).

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 514

It is obvious that those who wrote the OT were taking events and weaving god into them as they saw some events as his doing.

Quote:

The old testiment is full of examples of A. God asking questions and B. God changing his mind. Both indicate a lack of omnipotence (assuming you take the bible seriously).

The god of the OT shows a lot of human characteristics, which are really the telltail signs of an invented god. Examples: Greek, Norse, and Hindu gods. You can't really assign too much trust to anything in the OT.

As for the Open Theism thing: why would a god who created the universe, which is so complex that we still marvel at its basic workings, have the emotional stability of a knuckle-headed human being? He wouldn't be omnicient, but he would be smart as hell to create our universe. I wouldn't really expect that kind of god to be like the OT god. I sure hope that if there is a god, he she or it's not like the OT god.

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:36 am

My mind is swimming. On one hand there's a god who knows all and, it seems, cannot justifiably punish anyone for things he knew they'd do before he created them. On the other hand there's a god who is very smart and created this whole universe, but isn't able to see the future. Are we (and the whole universe/heaven/hell) a form of Conway's life simulation where God sits back and watches what happens, not knowing the outcome, or are we (and the universe/heaven/hell) a domino set where God set it up, rules and all, and tilted over the first domino? Confused

I'm looking for a way out of religion. I'm on a cusp of sorts, but I'm stuck.

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

IF there is a God, my guess is that the universe is his galactic ant farm. He watches us through a thin pane of glass as we pathetically struggle through our lives. The god as described by Xtians is certainly not the case as there are far too many contradictions. If there is a God I hope that he is not the hate filled angry monster that the Xtians and Islam make him out to be (behind all of the talk of love and forgiveness you still have a God just looking for any reason to condemn us to an eternity of suffering). Regardless as to whether there is a God or not, religion is and always has been a tool to keep the bulk of us in line.

Grand Poster Joined: Oct 24, 2005 Posts: 2505

He would have made up what "sins" are or at least should have known what they were, so I don't see how he wouldn't still ultimately be responsible given that he made us with that knowledge.

Hell is ultimately a flawed concept even if the "he doesn't know all" idea is true. An infinite amount of punishment serves no purpose other than torture for the sake of cruelty and some archaic need for revenge. Plus I think on the bible geek he mentions how hell isn't even biblically supported. All you have after that is the Catholic church’s tradition, and they've proven again and again throughout history that they're often wrong.

But this is ultimately doing mental gymnastics for a preconceived notion, shouldn't you just start from "Is there any evidence for god?". Unless you're just fearing hell and looking for reasons why it can't exist.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 514

Hell definately came from some human want for revenge for evil people, but some people maintain that hell is nothing more than absence from god. I really don't care, as long as there's a beer volcano.

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:18 am

Uncertainty wrote:

He would have made up what "sins" are or at least should have known what they were, so I don't see how he wouldn't still ultimately be responsible given that he made us with that knowledge.

Hell is ultimately a flawed concept even if the "he doesn't know all" idea is true. An infinite amount of punishment serves no purpose other than torture for the sake of cruelty and some archaic need for revenge. Plus I think on the bible geek he mentions how hell isn't even biblically supported. All you have after that is the Catholic church’s tradition, and they've proven again and again throughout history that they're often wrong.

But this is ultimately doing mental gymnastics for a preconceived notion, shouldn't you just start from "Is there any evidence for god?". Unless you're just fearing hell and looking for reasons why it can't exist.

I guess, having been raised with the concept of a hell all of my almost 28 years on this earth, I've got the nagging feeling that if I'm wrong I'll burn. If there is a God who punishes, he'll do so. If not then I guess there's no problem.... or if there is a god or some kind of creative force and no hell then there is no problem either.

Currently I'm falling into an agnostic belief I think. I don't think I can say that I believe there is no god. I also don't think I can say that I believe (as strongly) in the concepts of the god I was raised to believe in. I'm still seeking, I guess.

Just Arrived Joined: Mar 05, 2005 Posts: 3

Some times it takes longer for one person to come to terms with their fall from grace then others. (using the word grace loosely ) because others can spot something wrong with the whole god concept thing. But fear is the most powerful factor when trying to come to any conclusion about your faith.

If not the age old fear of burning in hell?.. Then having to tell family or friends and having them reject you for it.

When it comes right down to it… be true to your self, make your own decisions on what you feel is true and go with it.

I my self don’t believe in a god and don’t feel I need to. I did the whole church thing from age 6 till 20 and participated in the choirs and traveled with them thinking that I was doing something good, but then I sat down and read the bible and got really really confused about how many gods we had and who to pray too… God or Jesus and why was god all ticked off at us then sent his son to help us???

And the answers I kept getting was it’s all gods plan and we won’t know until the last days.

Just get past the fear and I feel it will come to you.

Grand Poster Joined: Jan 12, 2004 Posts: 1693

Seekah wrote:

Alright... So I was listening to one of the "Bible Geek" episodes yesterday and Reggie brought up Open Theism to Bob. I hadn't grasped the concept of that before (that God might not be omnipotent and omniscient).

Let me give a bit of recent history on my journey for a moment. I was intrigued by an argument that Reggie made. He brought up the question (I'm paraphrasing here): If God is all-knowing why would he create beings that he knew would "sin" and then punish them? This got me thinking. It didn't make any sense. I was starting to lean a little toward a more agnostic or atheistic position in my belief. (I'm a church-going Roman Catholic as of right now, though I'm questioning).

Well, the Open Theism argument has re-awakened some belief in me. If God isn't all-knowing then it makes more sense that he could punish people, because they have more culpability.

How would you respond to this? How does one argue against it from the Bible? How does an atheist respond to it? I know a lot of people throw out the Bible completely, but if someone could humor me for a but, I would be appreciate it.

Thanks.

(Edit: It was "The Bible Geek" episode #6)

Open theism is why I'm a Christian now.

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:04 am

atheod wrote:

Seekah wrote:

Alright... So I was listening to one of the "Bible Geek" episodes yesterday and Reggie brought up Open Theism to Bob. I hadn't grasped the concept of that before (that God might not be omnipotent and omniscient).

Let me give a bit of recent history on my journey for a moment. I was intrigued by an argument that Reggie made. He brought up the question (I'm paraphrasing here): If God is all-knowing why would he create beings that he knew would "sin" and then punish them? This got me thinking. It didn't make any sense. I was starting to lean a little toward a more agnostic or atheistic position in my belief. (I'm a church-going Roman Catholic as of right now, though I'm questioning).

Well, the Open Theism argument has re-awakened some belief in me. If God isn't all-knowing then it makes more sense that he could punish people, because they have more culpability.

How would you respond to this? How does one argue against it from the Bible? How does an atheist respond to it? I know a lot of people throw out the Bible completely, but if someone could humor me for a but, I would be appreciate it.

Thanks.

(Edit: It was "The Bible Geek" episode #6)

Open theism is why I'm a Christian now.

How can one take the Bible seriously and follow Open Theism? They seem to be at odds.

Grand Poster Joined: Jan 12, 2004 Posts: 1693

jcgadfly wrote:

atheod wrote:

Seekah wrote:

Alright... So I was listening to one of the "Bible Geek" episodes yesterday and Reggie brought up Open Theism to Bob. I hadn't grasped the concept of that before (that God might not be omnipotent and omniscient).

Let me give a bit of recent history on my journey for a moment. I was intrigued by an argument that Reggie made. He brought up the question (I'm paraphrasing here): If God is all-knowing why would he create beings that he knew would "sin" and then punish them? This got me thinking. It didn't make any sense. I was starting to lean a little toward a more agnostic or atheistic position in my belief. (I'm a church-going Roman Catholic as of right now, though I'm questioning).

Well, the Open Theism argument has re-awakened some belief in me. If God isn't all-knowing then it makes more sense that he could punish people, because they have more culpability.

How would you respond to this? How does one argue against it from the Bible? How does an atheist respond to it? I know a lot of people throw out the Bible completely, but if someone could humor me for a but, I would be appreciate it.

Thanks.

(Edit: It was "The Bible Geek" episode #6)

Open theism is why I'm a Christian now.

How can one take the Bible seriously and follow Open Theism? They seem to be at odds.

They only seem at odds to people who've chosen to accept Greek Philosophical notions over common sense.


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