Free Will

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

Missionary wrote:

I'm suggesting that the knowledge conforms in advance to the event taking place in the future, not the other way around. God simply knows correctly in advance.

If there is a light switch that only turns on or off.
It is resting in the off position.
I enter the room and turn it on.
God foreknew the event but did not CAUSE me to turn it on. I could just have easily turned around and decided NOT to turn the light on and exited the room. If I had of done that? Then God's foreknowledge would have been that I exited without turning on the light.

Either way God is not the cause of my decision. I have free will to enter/exit and turn on/off. The 2 choices are mine.

You’re just wrong. I recognize this line of BS from Catholic Seminary and I found it laughable at the time. This theology stems from the ardent belief that God is perfect and thus immutable; ergo to gain knowledge of events as they occur would indicate that God exists within the stream of time and changeable (which clearly can not be the case given God’s immutability). Aquinas (I believe) then decided that God must have created everything and every moment all at the time of creation. So, the Catholics argue, God does not see into the future since such a concept applies only to those within the stream of time. To God, there is no future; past or present…there just is what is. The fact of the matter is, if this is true, if God created everything and every moment at the same time then there is absolutely no free will…by definition.
I genuinely appreciate Missionaries efforts here on this forum. As a formerly devote Christian myself I understand what he is trying to do. In his mind he’s saving us all from God’s wrath (the wrath of an all loving God). I would like to suggest to him that his efforts will almost certainly fail, our eyes are already opened; however as I said I appreciate his efforts.

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

Missionary wrote:

MrSmith wrote:

Missionary wrote:

The purpose is very simple. Love.

If you love a girl, but she does not love you. You cannot tie her up in the basement and tell her, "I'm doing this because I love you". If you truely love her, and she wants to leave? You MUST let her choose. Eternity will be filled with those who want and choose to be there. If one chooses to reject God's offer, He permits it and honors it.

Nor would you allow her to starve to death or be raped or be tortured if you loved her and had the power to stop it. Love does not have to be recipricol. A good parent will always love their children even if the love is not returned. A good parent would never prsent their children an option that would lead to their eternal damnation. Free will is the best case possible that God does n ot love us (assuming we have free will and that there is actually a god).

I'm suggesting this is a humanist view, not a biblical view. It's based upon the assumption that 1) we're "all" God's children and 2) that suffering on earth is a result of God's cruelty or lack of compassion. Both 1 and 2 are false assumptions.

1) Individuals are "adopted" as God's children when we respond to His call.
2) Suffering is a result of sin and it's effects upon mankind. It is illustrative in part of the eternal suffering that will result in denying God's work to adopt us. We are currently living under slavery to sin in the orphanage of hate. The "god of this world" according to the bible is Satan. He is the current master of mankind. God offers "salvation" from this condition.

If you truly love a girl, then you would not even present her with the option of eternal suffering. You wouldn’t cast her into a world owned by “Satan” where the only evidence as to how she can save herself was found in a book assembled nearly 2000 years ago by humans, written by humans, and was accompanied by zero pieces of collaborating evidence (in fact a book which contradicts observable reality routinely). I’m not willing to say that there is no God (honestly I don’t really care); however if the scenario you present is correct then God =/= omni benevolence.

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:14 am

Missionary wrote:

Omniscience and Free Will are compatible.

You can assert this all you like, but it doesn't make it true under the supposed attributes of your god.

If any being (it doesn't have to be a god) can predict the future absolutely, that definitionally means the future is immutable and pre-determined. What you fail to grasp is it doesn’t have to be the entity with this absolute knowledge that is the “cause” of the deterministic future (although if said being with this knowledge is also the absolute creative force, it would). Only if we humans (or any other entity, living or non-living) can do something that is unpredictable, can there truly be "free will". If your god knows our future actions absolutely “free will” can only be an illusion.

I think it’s more interesting to understand why you believe there must be free will. It’s obviously because without that element every bit of harm your god has supposedly caused becomes irrational and cruel.

Quote:

Everything God foreknows is not necessarily determined.

If anything is foreknown absolutely (only one choice/direction can actually be taken), it is definitionally predetermined. Only actions that can't be predicted could be considered free of determinism. If you consider this god to have absolute foreknowledge of the future, you can't escape this contradiction.

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:49 am

Beyond all these confusing theological musings, I consider human behavior to be the result of external and internal causal elements which are mostly, if not completely beyond our will to control. If contracausal free will doesn’t exist the human trait of bringing harmful reciprocation in response to certain behaviors becomes unethical, and somewhat irrational.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

Missionary wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

4) God grants limited free will in that the will is free to choose from a limited set of choices. We have free will to choose certain things while at the same time reach barriers that cannot be exceeded.

This is completely contrary to the Butterfly effect and chaos theory. You can only have one set events for one outcome. Free will would thwart any kind of fate since god can't interfere with free will, and choices determine the outcome of a set of events.

I never said or inferred that God CANNOT interfere with free will. He will not when it comes to determining The Choice. However, the bible clearly describes a God who interacts with mankind, His people, and brings about His will. The bible even indicates that He has placed Kings in authority. God, as well as satan, most certainly work to influence the decision. God calls men to Himself while satan distracts. However, The Choice is not determined by God or satan, but is left to the man. The choice is genuine and each person is held responsible for that choice. That responsibility is seen in the judgment.

Then free will might as well be an illusion. No matter what man chooses, god would still carry out his plan regardless. So what's he need Man and his Free Will for? I makes no sense that god would allow satan to distract, he is all powerfull, isn't he?

This is what I have so far: God gives Man free will to make his own decisions. However, these decisions wont really impact upon god's final plan. God has essentially given man the ability to choose between Good and Evil, but punishes man if his choice is wrong. Why would a god want to make an imperfect being like man make this kind of decision and then punich him for being wrong? Man's choice is made no easier by god allowing satan to distract man. Is god a sadist?

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:11 am

Seriously--is there a reason the troll is being fed?

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

It's entertaining. We don't have anything else to do on these forums. I don't like being bored.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

MrSmith wrote:

Missionary wrote:

I'm suggesting that the knowledge conforms in advance to the event taking place in the future, not the other way around. God simply knows correctly in advance.

If there is a light switch that only turns on or off.
It is resting in the off position.
I enter the room and turn it on.
God foreknew the event but did not CAUSE me to turn it on. I could just have easily turned around and decided NOT to turn the light on and exited the room. If I had of done that? Then God's foreknowledge would have been that I exited without turning on the light.

Either way God is not the cause of my decision. I have free will to enter/exit and turn on/off. The 2 choices are mine.

You’re just wrong. I recognize this line of BS from Catholic Seminary and I found it laughable at the time. This theology stems from the ardent belief that God is perfect and thus immutable; ergo to gain knowledge of events as they occur would indicate that God exists within the stream of time and changeable (which clearly can not be the case given God’s immutability). Aquinas (I believe) then decided that God must have created everything and every moment all at the time of creation. So, the Catholics argue, God does not see into the future since such a concept applies only to those within the stream of time. To God, there is no future; past or present…there just is what is. The fact of the matter is, if this is true, if God created everything and every moment at the same time then there is absolutely no free will…by definition.

That's not my position at all. We have free will within legal boundaries. God foreknows the outcome without determining that outcome. This offers us a genuine choice to accept/reject God. There are certain things God foreknows that He has determined.

MrSmith wrote:

I genuinely appreciate Missionaries efforts here on this forum. As a formerly devote Christian myself I understand what he is trying to do. In his mind he’s saving us all from God’s wrath (the wrath of an all loving God). I would like to suggest to him that his efforts will almost certainly fail, our eyes are already opened; however as I said I appreciate his efforts.

Nahh, I just got tired of debating Christians. I mean, what fun is it when every post is replied to with, "I agree"?

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

MrSmith wrote:

I’m not willing to say that there is no God (honestly I don’t really care)

I doubt your sincerity. I get what you're saying, you haven't seen evidence and your studies and religious practice led to nothing beyond throwing in the towel. But, should this God exist, I'm suggesting you do indeed care. I mean, who would NOT want to know the truth?

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:58 am

Quote:

That's not my position at all. We have free will within legal boundaries. God foreknows the outcome without determining that outcome. This offers us a genuine choice to accept/reject God. There are certain things God foreknows that He has determined.

The only way this could be is if god does not know what we're going to do, which obviates his omniscience. But now I expect you to redefine omniscience also.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

So Christian free will is a bad joke. There is already a predetermined outcome and, try as you might, your choice won't affect it. God knows your choice can't effect it, but he still makes you choose anyway.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

Omniscience and Free Will are compatible.

You can assert this all you like, but it doesn't make it true under the supposed attributes of your god.

If any being (it doesn't have to be a god) can predict the future absolutely, that definitionally means the future is immutable and pre-determined. What you fail to grasp is it doesn’t have to be the entity with this absolute knowledge that is the “cause” of the deterministic future (although if said being with this knowledge is also the absolute creative force, it would). Only if we humans (or any other entity, living or non-living) can do something that is unpredictable, can there truly be "free will". If your god knows our future actions absolutely “free will” can only be an illusion.

I think it’s more interesting to understand why you believe there must be free will. It’s obviously because without that element every bit of harm your god has supposedly caused becomes irrational and cruel.

There are OT biblical passages that support the choice directly.

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

Everything God foreknows is not necessarily determined.

If anything is foreknown absolutely (only one choice/direction can actually be taken), it is definitionally predetermined. Only actions that can't be predicted could be considered free of determinism. If you consider this god to have absolute foreknowledge of the future, you can't escape this contradiction.

Your premise is as follows:

P1) If G knows that you will [do some action] A, then you must do A.
P2) If you must do A, then you have no choice in the matter.

Thus If G knows that you will do A then you have no choice and MUST do A

My premise is as follows:

P1) It MUST be that If G knows that you will [do some action] A, then you will do A).
P2) If you must do A, then you have no choice in the matter. (P2 is same as your premise)

Thus If G knows that you will do A then you have a choice to do B but will do A as is foreknown but not caused.

G has advance knowledge that a choice between A&B will result in A.
G does not determine or cause A to be done by advance knowledge.
G can and does determine that C will be done by G.
Where C intersects A or B, A&B are prevented by Laws.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

Are you suggesting that god knows which decisions you will make? This could never work with free will. Decision making happens spontaneously. It is very much unpredictable. For god to know what decisions you would make before hand, you would have to already favor this choice subconciously. This would not be beyond an omniscient being to figure out. However, this demonstrates a lack of free will as the choice would have to be obviously predetermined by a large variety of psychological factors.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

kmisho wrote:

Quote:

That's not my position at all. We have free will within legal boundaries. God foreknows the outcome without determining that outcome. This offers us a genuine choice to accept/reject God. There are certain things God foreknows that He has determined.

The only way this could be is if god does not know what we're going to do, which obviates his omniscience. But now I expect you to redefine omniscience also.

Not at all. We have boundaries we discover and describe as laws. We are free within those boundaries. When we attempt to exceed laws we meet resistance which increases exponentially until failure is reached. Free will is genuine for a set purpose: to choose between A & B. Utter freedom is illusory.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Cygnus wrote:

Are you suggesting that god knows which decisions you will make?

Yes.

Cygnus wrote:

This could never work with free will. Decision making happens spontaneously. It is very much unpredictable.

Yes they do. And God, who created you and knows exactly how you think, knows your choices in advance without causing them.

Cygnus wrote:

For god to know what decisions you would make before hand, you would have to already favor this choice subconciously. This would not be beyond an omniscient being to figure out. However, this demonstrates a lack of free will as the choice would have to be obviously predetermined by a large variety of psychological factors.

Restated as true, " the choice would have to be obviously INFLUENCED by a large variety of psychological factors (such as life experiences) ."

If we are making decisions that are not caused, then we have free will. This does not imply we have "utter freedom" such as to destroy the planet, desroy the sun, obliterate all mankind, thwart/alter God's determined plans.


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