Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Sun May 04, 2008 12:46 pm
Ralphellectual wrote:
I've seen some of these folks in person, or read essays and/or all or part of books by them and others. I refuse to pay money to attend expensive conferences where these people are the featured speakers. I see a lot of fawning but little critical analysis. After all, they are our public advocates, and they are finally giving us voice in the news media. The problem is, they play a double role. They don't just confine their remarks to atheism, religion, and pseudoscience, they make a number of other pronouncements that are far less savory.
Similarly, when assholes from the religious left like Chris Hedges attack the "new atheists" they don't just criticize their politics, they slander their atheism.
The whole society is succumbing to an irrationalism the likes of which I have not seen. On the other hand, what is reason? Is it just knowledge of the natural sciences, which is all that interests our intellectuals? Does calling yourself a rationalist make you rational? Is religion the only source of irrationality? So that all irrational thinking has to be classified as religious?
I can't speak for other countries, but in the USA it seems we are almost as childish as our adversaries., when it comes to politics, sociology, and history.
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Sun May 04, 2008 12:49 pm
Oncilla wrote:
Dear Folks:
I am new to posting to forums, so please bear with me.
I am a Black male and am an atheist. Liberal theology and politics go hand-in-hand in the Black community. If you criticize religion, you are essentially criticizing the other concept. This duality goes back further than the Civil Rights Era.
However, Blacks are just now getting into the modern era of philosophical thought. It took quite a while for me to get "out of the closet" as an atheist. One of the best methods that I use to critique the Bible is with its dealings with slavery. How can someone in the Black community love a document that does not explicitly comdemn slavery?
As we learn more and more about the world outside the "Black identity" philosophy, the religious ties that bind us will unravel.
Welcome to both you and everbleed.
Earlier in this thread I said "With the birth of the civil rights movement, the ideas of earthly freedom and cosmic justice combined to become a single entity driving social change. To this day, for a black to denounce the faith of his (or her) fathers is tantamount to turning his back on the struggle. The belief in the inseparability of these ideas is only barely beginning to come under attack in the black community."
At least your perception corroborates this.
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Sun May 04, 2008 12:51 pm
Ralphellectual wrote:
This thread is about blacks and religion--I almost forgot. This started with my objection that talking about grasshoppers or moths is useless--no, worse than useless, criminal even--for understanding the relation between blacks and religion since slavery. I have yet to see black atheists with a public profile offer much more than tell some stories of black freethinkers in history or of themselves and people they've surveyed. I have yet to see any institutional or ideological analysis of what's going on in society. I think this is partially due to the pickle they are in, as well as the rather politically retarded consciousness of the atheist community as a whole, and of the rather constricted intellectual breadth of the allegedly more sophisticated "humanists".
Ralph, you do realize that all you are doing is whining. If you feel there is a hole that needs to be filled, grab your shovel! We'd love to hear what you have to say beyond mindless condemnations.
grimey Newbie
Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Posted:
Wed May 07, 2008 9:27 am
in some black communities there is a chuch almost on every corner! this is crazy to me....
Ralphellectual Newbie First Class
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 26
Posted:
Wed May 07, 2008 9:46 am
grimey wrote:
in some black communities there is a chuch almost on every corner! this is crazy to me....
So is this a novel observation for you? Yeah, it's depressing, but it's old old news. Perhaps a comparative analysis with the institutions of other ethnic groups is in order. For example, one could compare the ratios of religious to secular organizations. Black secular organizations that immediately come to mind are nationally rather than neighborhood based--NAACP, CORE (which is probably not a serious organization anymore, if it's the right wing outfit I'm thinking of), etc. Another thing to look as it what happened to black communities following the landmark civil rights legislation of the '60s and the riots. (BTW, the Black Panthers was a secular organization, virtually exterminated by the police.) Is there a church on every corner in middle class black neighborhoods--or does one or two churches per area suffice? Problem is, given the rural origins of the majority of the black population, the great migration, being artificially kept at the bottom of society, etc., it's not terribly surprising that religious institutions would be so prominent. The real disappointment is the social decay that set in when a great percentage of the black population failed to benefit from the civil rights revolution when the economy took a nose-dive in the '70s. What we are seeing are the effects of stagnation, and I see it every time I venture out my door.
BTW, why would anyone doubt I adhere to the atheist position, just because I insist that atheists need to be more historically and sociologically informed?
Ralphellectual Newbie First Class
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 26
Posted:
Wed May 07, 2008 9:50 am
I haven't had a chance to see
African American Atheists and Political Liberation
. I'd certainly like to see a review of this book.
BTW, has anyone read Don Barbera's
Black But Not Baptist
? Me neither.
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Thu May 08, 2008 6:27 am
Ralphellectual wrote:
BTW, why would anyone doubt I adhere to the atheist position, just because I insist that atheists need to be more historically and sociologically informed?
I think the only reason some were suspicious is because you were dumping on current public streams in atheism without trying to correct the problem, at least in terms of talking to us on this forum. The easiest thing in the world is to say there are problems, the next easiest is to list some of those problems. But it can be hard to list and even harder to enact solutions.
Last edited by kmisho on Thu May 08, 2008 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Thu May 08, 2008 6:45 am
Ralphellectual wrote:
I haven't had a chance to see
African American Atheists and Political Liberation
. I'd certainly like to see a review of this book.
BTW, has anyone read Don Barbera's
Black But Not Baptist
? Me neither.
Here's a little more on what the book is actually about:
"This study of atheist African American writers poses a substantive challenge to those who see atheism in despairing and nihilistic terms. Lackey argues that while most white atheists mourn the loss of faith, many black atheists - believing the "God-concept" spawns racism and oppression - consider the death of God a cause for personal and political hope. Focusing on a little-discussed aspect of African American literature, this full-length analysis of African American atheists' treatment of God fills a huge gap in studies that consistently ignore their contributions. Examining how a belief in God and His "chosen people" necessitates a politics of superiority and inferiority, Lackey implicitly considers the degree to which religious faith is responsible for justifying oppression, even acts of physical and psychological violence. In their secular vision of social and political justice, black atheists argue that only when the culture adopts and internalizes a truly atheist politics - one based on pluralism, tolerance, and freedom - will radical democracy be achieved. Of primary interest to scholars of African American studies, this volume also will appeal to religious scholars, philosophers, anthropologists, and religious and secular humanists."
The 1 review of Black and Not Baptist on Amazon was pretty bad.
Ralphellectual Newbie First Class
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 26
Posted:
Wed May 14, 2008 4:17 am
There are no solutions. As an example of the rampant stupidity prevalent among atheists as others when race--or any social issue--is discussed, see this discussion on the Sam Harris site:
If Sam Harris' web site attracts this many idiots, what does it say about the caliber of the atheist/humanist movement and the job it is doing to educate its constituency?
For several months, I have been running a small Black Humanists Meetup in Boston. The purpose of my group is "to create venues for Black Humanists to socalize, provide moral support for each other and network in a superstition-free community setting."
I am wondering if anyone else here runs, is involved with, or is aware of offline meetings or groups specifically intended to provide this kind of support to non-religious people who are members of hyper-religious ethnic groups.
If so, I would be interested in sharing ideas and experiences, as well as possibly attending offline meetings in New England or New York City.
- Ken
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Sat May 17, 2008 3:05 am
Ralphellectual wrote:
There are no solutions. As an example of the rampant stupidity prevalent among atheists as others when race--or any social issue--is discussed, see this discussion on the Sam Harris site:
If Sam Harris' web site attracts this many idiots, what does it say about the caliber of the atheist/humanist movement and the job it is doing to educate its constituency?
I don't find this running commentary any different from the crap I see on all other blogs.
There are some other threads on Obama and the other candidates, and one suggesting Michelle O is to blame.
The thread on Jews and Judaism is equally depressing.
What I mean by solutions is tell us what's wrong with it besides merely calling it crap and calling everyone an idiot. You're no help at all.
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Sat May 17, 2008 3:11 am
misterken wrote:
Hi folks.
For several months, I have been running a small Black Humanists Meetup in Boston. The purpose of my group is "to create venues for Black Humanists to socalize, provide moral support for each other and network in a superstition-free community setting."
I am wondering if anyone else here runs, is involved with, or is aware of offline meetings or groups specifically intended to provide this kind of support to non-religious people who are members of hyper-religious ethnic groups.
If so, I would be interested in sharing ideas and experiences, as well as possibly attending offline meetings in New England or New York City.
We're too far away to do a physical meetup with you, but would certainly entertain exchanging ideas.
We might have to get back together in the summer. We're having a momentary organizational crisis. The main guy who prepares discussion topics (among other things) is a photographer and spring is the busy season (for weddings).
We've been working quite hard toward having community impact, collecting ideas, some advertizing, even in the process of setting ourselves up as a nonprofit.
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