Many ordinary Americans have long been suspicious of free trade, seeing it as a destroyer of good-paying jobs. American economists, though, have told a different story. For them, free trade has been the great unmitigated good, the force that drives a country to shed unproductive industries, focus on what it does best, and create new, higher-skilled jobs that offer better pay than those that are lost. This support of free trade by the academic Establishment is a big reason why Presidents, be they Democrat or Republican, have for years pursued a free-trade agenda. The experts they consult have always told them that free trade was the best route to ever higher living standards.
But something momentous is happening inside the church of free trade: Doubts are creeping in. We're not talking wholesale, dramatic repudiation of the theory. Economists are, however, noting that their ideas can't explain the disturbing stagnation in income that much of the middle class is experiencing. They also fear a protectionist backlash unless more is done to help those who are losing out. "Previously, you just had extremists making extravagant claims against trade," says Gary C. Hufbauer, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "Now there are broader questions being raised that would not have been asked 10 or 15 years ago."
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raky Newbie
Joined: Jan 10, 2008
Posts: 18
Location: 29681
Posted:
Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:27 pm
Quote:
They also fear a protectionist backlash unless more is done to help those who are losing out.
A backlash against what? Free-market economists?
Maybe they're afraid they'll lose their jobs, lol....oh, wait, they're probably protected.
_________________ "This is The Life." Someone Else
corynski Newbie First Class
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 25
Location: hills of east tennessee
Posted:
Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:08 am
Greetings All
It's questionable to my mind that any kind of system of free trade could really work well, given the nature of the human animal. I doubt there are enough honest people to run an economy, however it is done. Here we sit, trillions of dollars in debt and the pols are ready to flood the country with more funny money.
One thing that the communists learned the hard way, and the socialists apparently never will, is that only a free market can set prices and allocate resources efficiently. To capitalism, individuals are all important as the drivers of innovation and progress, while in communism and socialism, a few leaders try to determine what is 'best for the masses'. Corruption seems to do them all in.
The US now has a kind of oligarchic, corporate fascism, passed off as a democracy. How about Stan Neal of Merrill Lynch, and Mozillo of Countrywide Finance walking off with millions as their companies write off billions, and their former comapany shares plummet?
_________________ "All the propositions of logic say the same thing, that is, nothing." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
"Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language." -- Lugwig Wittgenstein
Jason_Harvestdancer Graduate Thinker
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
Posts: 593
Posted:
Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:00 am
Every time you've got a "economists doubt free trade" article, and they've been around for over a century, ask yourself one question.
What do they mean by free trade? Stuff like WTO, NAFTA, and GATT aren't free trade, they're managed trade. If criticizing those, it is popular to say that free trade is being criticized. Popular but not true. The critic takes all the faults of managed trade and lays them at the feet of free trade.
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 25
Location: hills of east tennessee
Posted:
Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:23 am
Quote:
What do they mean by free trade?
Exactly, and what does anyone mean by 'free markets'? Many players think the gold and silver markets are fiddled too. And our notorius 'Plunge Protection Team', ready to use taxpayer money (debt) to shore up the stock market if need be. Sometimes it looks like it's all fiddled doesn't it?
_________________ "All the propositions of logic say the same thing, that is, nothing." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
"Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language." -- Lugwig Wittgenstein
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1677
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:12 am
You couldn't get rid of markets if you wanted to. A market run with money is just a magnified barter system.
Corruption is a bane to any system. My fear is that truly free markets would be most susceptible to corruption. (By the same token, total socialism is an invite to corruption.)Free market people often point out the system is self correcting, and it is. But I'm not willing to live with the damage done in the interim waiting for the market to correct.
Jason_Harvestdancer Graduate Thinker
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
Posts: 593
Posted:
Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:14 am
I'm not willing to live with the damage done in the interim waiting for the government to stop with a failed correction, one that does more harm than good, as that would outlast most peoples lifespans.
You couldn't get rid of markets if you wanted to. A market run with money is just a magnified barter system.
Corruption is a bane to any system. My fear is that truly free markets would be most susceptible to corruption.
Yeah....because people just can't spend their money where they want, right?
Moron. Do you even think before you post? Do you consider the logical conclusions of your ideas?
kmisho wrote:
(By the same token, total socialism is an invite to corruption.)
No, it is corrupt, period.
kmisho wrote:
Free market people often point out the system is self correcting, and it is. But I'm not willing to live with the damage done in the interim waiting for the market to correct.
So we should all bow to your fucking wishes, little tinpot dictator?
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1677
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:16 am
Knight_of_BAAWA wrote:
kmisho wrote:
You couldn't get rid of markets if you wanted to. A market run with money is just a magnified barter system.
Corruption is a bane to any system. My fear is that truly free markets would be most susceptible to corruption.
Yeah....because people just can't spend their money where they want, right?
Moron. Do you even think before you post? Do you consider the logical conclusions of your ideas?
kmisho wrote:
(By the same token, total socialism is an invite to corruption.)
No, it is corrupt, period.
kmisho wrote:
Free market people often point out the system is self correcting, and it is. But I'm not willing to live with the damage done in the interim waiting for the market to correct.
So we should all bow to your fucking wishes, little tinpot dictator?
Whatever...
Knight_of_BAAWA Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Mar 09, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: USA
Posted:
Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:02 am
Well, that about wraps it up for the tinpot dictator.
Saitou Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 02, 2002
Posts: 5012
Location: USA
Posted:
Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:21 am
The more free trade there is the better. People only voluntarily trade with others when they come out ahead--both sides win.
Most people who complain about free trade fear competition. Sure some individuals may be negatively impacted however many other individuals will be positively so. The perception of free trade people have tends to depend on which group they focus on.
It is only when the government interferes, laws are broken, or there is deception that the outcome can be something other than positive (macro not necessarily mico).
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