Why would an all powerfull being want or need?

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9384

Now, this goes out to the theists. I don't want you talking about your particular god. I want you to strictly address the concept of "all powerful" and "perfect". Please focus only on those concepts when answering the following.

Why would an all powerful god want or need to be the center of attention? When you order food at a restaurant and after eating it you don't feel anything needed to be changed, you describe it as "perfect".

The words want or need show a deficit. If god has no deficits then it should not want or need anything.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:50 am

Brian37 wrote:

I want you to strictly address the concept of "all powerful" and "perfect".

What if their idea of god doesn't include those attributes?

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:55 pm

If it doens't include those attributes, why worship it? And if no worship, in what sense is it a god?

Newbie Joined: Jan 30, 2008 Posts: 11

kmisho wrote:

If it doens't include those attributes, why worship it? And if no worship, in what sense is it a god?

Honestly, the idea that a god has to be all powerful, perfect, etc. in order to be considered a god is a fairly modern idea. It doesn't appear in any polytheistic system. It only exists in monotheism, and even then there are contradictory claims.

I, for one, don't think that "god" is defined by an objective set of attributes. So, if there were imperfect but cosmos-ruling superbeings like Zeus and the lot, I wouldn't have any problem referring to them as gods. The fact that they are not literally all powerful wouldn't change anything for me. As far as worship goes, you say that there is no reason to worship something if it isn't all powerful, perfect, etc. I'm curious, what reason is there to worship something that is ?

I really hate getting into semantics, but just what is worship anyway? I've never really understood. In literal Hebrew and Greek, the words translated as "worship" in the Bible simply mean to bow or lay prostrate before.

Brian, the only answer I can think of for a theist would be that it isn't that God wants our worship, but that he somehow deserves it. I'm not defending that view, but that is the answer I tend to get when I ask that question. This doesn't really fit with the Bible, since God makes it very clear in there that he most certainly does want attention.

I asked a similar question to a traveling evangelist. He said that God doesn't need our worship and praise, but that he is the "proper object" of worship and praise. Perfect beings should be worshiped and God, realizing that, enforces a sort of universal ethical mandate to that effect. It just so happens he is the only one who is perfect (setting aside, for the moment, the whole trinity thing). The easiest problem to spot with this is that, since God makes all the rules, he gets to decide what is a "mandate" and what isn't. If he created the universe/rules, and we are obligated to worship perfect being, then he designed that obligation.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:20 am

kmisho wrote:

If it doens't include those attributes, why worship it? And if no worship, in what sense is it a god?

Even if it had those attributes, why worship it? Throughout human history, people have worshipped things as gods without these and other omni attributes. I do however agree that a god without worship really isn’t a god in any real sense. In fact, I'd say the defining factors of a god are that it's worshipped and generally is some type of progenitor. I see no reason why a god must have omni attributes to be worshipped.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:00 pm

kmisho wrote:

If it doens't include those attributes, why worship it? And if no worship, in what sense is it a god?

This is not particularly my area of expertise, but isn't that one of the benefits of polytheism? A polytheistic god need not be perfect becuase that god is one of a few or many gods. Therefore, a polytheistic god, like Vishnu, can be imperfect. And if they can be imperfect, they can have wants or needs. (And, can still be worshipeed as an integral part of a whole.)

Newbie First Class Joined: Feb 02, 2008 Posts: 44

Brian37 wrote:

Now, this goes out to the theists. I don't want you talking about your particular god. I want you to strictly address the concept of "all powerful" and "perfect". Please focus only on those concepts when answering the following.

Why would an all powerful god want or need to be the center of attention? When you order food at a restaurant and after eating it you don't feel anything needed to be changed, you describe it as "perfect".

The words want or need show a deficit. If god has no deficits then it should not want or need anything.

What do you claim God wants or needs?

Newbie First Class Joined: Dec 21, 2005 Posts: 44

Quote:

What do you claim God wants or needs?

The god of the bible needs:

Blood so he (or IT) can forgive.
The smell of burning flesh, just for pleasure.
Worship because he (or It) needs to be the centre of attention
People to kill his or It's enemies.
Angels because he or it can't talk, after all they are called the messengers of god. Personal relationship my ass!
And gullible fucks to believe in the crap.

And Oh yeah - Satan, to blame all his or it's imperfections on.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 513

Quote:

What do you claim God wants or needs?

Well, apparently he wants SOMEthing if he created Adam and Eve, or the world for that matter.

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:14 pm

Quote:

Why would an all powerful god want or need to be the center of attention?

Brian, I think you already know the answer to the question you ask. Wink

Well to me, a perfect omnipotent being who existed before our universe did cannot have any needs or wants. I just don't see it. Before the universe existed there was nothing more but this perfect,omnipotent,omniscient, omnipresent being,...how can that being have a lack when only it exist? I mean, if it was to want something, what could it possibly want which isnt itself? If only God existed and nothing else before creation and God wanted something, what could God possibly want which wouldnt come from himself, because only he exist? If God was to create something, logically anything he creates would only come from himself , and it would also be himself only in a different form, so how can he possibly want something or lack something when he is suppose to have everything?

I just dont see God being able to want something which he is already suppose to have within himself. If God was truely perfect he wouldnt have created anything, perid. There is no motive.

Newbie First Class Joined: Dec 21, 2005 Posts: 44

IF we find a can of coke can we can conclude that there must be a coke factory somewhere.
But if we find life, I can't see how we can conclude that a needless blob that is the factory of life must be somewhere.
A perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being must be dreamt up.
It is a fantasy.

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:23 pm

Kevinthepragmaticist wrote:

kmisho wrote:

If it doens't include those attributes, why worship it? And if no worship, in what sense is it a god?

This is not particularly my area of expertise, but isn't that one of the benefits of polytheism? A polytheistic god need not be perfect becuase that god is one of a few or many gods. Therefore, a polytheistic god, like Vishnu, can be imperfect. And if they can be imperfect, they can have wants or needs. (And, can still be worshipeed as an integral part of a whole.)

MockingGods wrote:

Even if it had those attributes, why worship it? Throughout human history, people have worshipped things as gods without these and other omni attributes. I do however agree that a god without worship really isn’t a god in any real sense. In fact, I'd say the defining factors of a god are that it's worshipped and generally is some type of progenitor. I see no reason why a god must have omni attributes to be worshipped.

I had in mind a strain of theological argument that I consider pretty strong that defines god as worthy of worship. If a being lacks omni-attirbutes, why worship it?

Polytheism is hardly worth consideration because it turns gods into people. Worshipping this or that god in a polytheistic system is the same as worshipping this or that person. This amounts to defining a god by the fact that it's worshipped rather than the other way around. This calls into question the efficacy of worship itself. Is a person who is worshipped a god?

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:28 am

kmisho wrote:

Is a person who is worshipped a god?

Dictionary.com concering god wrote:

7. (lowercase) any deified person or object.

Dictionary.com concering deify wrote:

to make a god of; exalt to the rank of a deity; personify as a deity: to deify a beloved king .

Notice the italicized part about the king

This is one of the problems with the word itself; it's so fuzzy and confusing it's basically meaningless.

Jesus was supposedly a person and most Christians think he's actually the uppercase variety of a god. So I'd say yes, it's possible for a person who is worshipped to be considered a god, but not necessarily just because he/she’s worshipped. In other words, people and other objects can be worshipped without being considered gods, but something that is not worshipped would most likely never be considered a god.

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

kmisho wrote:

If it doens't include those attributes, why worship it? And if no worship, in what sense is it a god?

Why? Might makes right. Most religious folk believe that they are faced with two options: make god happy or burn for eternity. Certainly if such a god exists it is not perfect, but if you truly believe this crap then you'd be wise to worship it.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:44 pm

MockingGods wrote:

kmisho wrote:

Is a person who is worshipped a god?

Dictionary.com concering god wrote:

7. (lowercase) any deified person or object.

Dictionary.com concering deify wrote:

to make a god of; exalt to the rank of a deity; personify as a deity: to deify a beloved king .

Notice the italicized part about the king

This is one of the problems with the word itself; it's so fuzzy and confusing it's basically meaningless.

Jesus was supposedly a person and most Christians think he's actually the uppercase variety of a god. So I'd say yes, it's possible for a person who is worshipped to be considered a god, but not necessarily just because he/she’s worshipped. In other words, people and other objects can be worshipped without being considered gods, but something that is not worshipped would most likely never be considered a god.

Quite so. And they switch back and forth between different idea of "worship", another typical tactic.


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