Should prostitution be illegal?

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:49 am

First, I'd like to say it's a pleasure having this discussion with you DA. I've been thinking about this thread for some time now, and think it's time to bump the dialogue again. I'll begin with, hopefully, some less vague descriptions of what we're discussing and points we may agree on.

1). It's probably safe to say we both agree that consensual sex among adults should remain legal.
2). We probably both would agree that non-consensual sex (rape) should remain illegal.
3). We probably both agree that whether prostitution is legal or illegal, it will continue to be practiced.

Prostitution is at its essence the exchange of money, favors or resources for sex. You find for the illegality of sex as an exchange mechanism, and I find for the opposite.

So here's the point I think we both care about. Does the legalization of sex as a commodity tend to make the people that participate in the practice more or less well off. If either of the two options could be proven, I think we'd both agree from that point. In other words, if the legalization of sex as a commodity can be shown to improve the condition of the participants, we'd probably both agree that would be the best situation, and visa versa.

Can any data be accumulated that might prove this one way or the other? In the countries and states where sex is a legalized commodity is the situation of the participants better or worse?

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There are no written contracts, no waivers or consent forms. Nor do I believe that johns in a legal environment would willfully submit their identities to the public domain.

There are no written contracts, waivers or consent forms for much of what is legally bought and sold in our world.

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To compare, the financial system in the U.S. was "well-managed" up until August 2008. How do we protect the "investment" of the prostitutes in your system?

I'd like to clarify that I'm not a proponent of humanity's current idea of economic systems, including the US. I have no "system" to improve their lot, other then an opinion that legalization would improve it. I could be wrong.

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This is also my opinion. Apologies for my hyperbole.

You're opinions and hyperbole are welcome with no apologies necessary Very Happy

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:06 pm

my opinion has and always will be, vice should not be an offense punishable by society. it especially makes no sense for prostitution to be illegal when it's legal to smoke cigarettes and cigars and drink alcohol (both have been shown to cause harmful effects to one's health) and for marijuana possession could land you in jail. or for pornography to be legal. if these people, legislators especially, want prostitution to be illegal and remain illegal, then they should also be working to make porn and sex toys illegal as well.

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:04 pm

ctk wrote:

if these people, legislators especially, want prostitution to be illegal and remain illegal, then they should also be working to make porn and sex toys illegal as well.

I understand you comparison between the pornography industry and prostitution, and mostly agree with it. Sex toys however, I don't get that. Sex toys are generally used for individual sexual activity and don't involve a monetary exchange between individuals for a sexual act between them.

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:09 pm

if we agree that these people's arguments aren't all that rational to begin with:

sex toys are used to promote sexual encounters which could lead to having sex with your unmarried partner who could be a prostitute. or it leads to personal gratification with no possibility of a pregnancy coming from the act. i think that these people also look down upon masturbation as well.

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:34 pm

ctk wrote:

if we agree that these people's arguments aren't all that rational to begin with:

If you're talking about the puritanical Christian base of the US(these people), I'd say their arguments are mostly based upon religious dogma and not rationalism.

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sex toys are used to promote sexual encounters which could lead to having sex with your unmarried partner who could be a prostitute.

I suppose a banana could be used for the same thing. Wink

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or it leads to personal gratification with no possibility of a pregnancy coming from the act.

Which is the only legitimate, "Godly" use of sex.

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i think that these people also look down upon masturbation as well.

Of course, but they can't seem to get it deemed illegal. The typical use of "sex toys" is for personal gratification (masturbation), just like the typical use of a gun is to kill or injure something. It doesn't mean both can't have other uses, like you could use a dildo to stir your coffee. Laughing

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:18 am

MockingGods wrote:

You find for the illegality of sex as an exchange mechanism, and I find for the opposite.

Well, MG, I agree with your premises (outlined above) but I provide a correction to this quoted sentence. I do not, in fact find for illegality. I am still undecided.

I think that your argument does not convince me, because it omits something – I wish I could articulate what that is.
Whether accurate data can be accumulated or not may not be the point, though yes, I would find that to be helpful. I think that perhaps I am just balking at the idea that a uniform law may be applied to very non-uniform group of people. This strikes at a lot of other laws that already exist (laws controlling the nature of work, etc.). How could we ever tell which people would benefit from the proposed law, and which would suffer?

I think that ultimately, what is causing my "puritanical" reaction to the idea is that I think of prostitution as a form of slavery – a cold commodification of human beings. It seems absurd to me to place a system of law on this, and to allow it to continue – something akin to systems of law surrounding the slave trade in the early US. Doesn't that seem absurd?

Like you, I too appreciate this conversation. I'm really not sure there is a clear answer here, but laying out the topography of the argument has been a rewarding undertaking.

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:27 pm

DigitalAtheist wrote:

MockingGods wrote:

You find for the illegality of sex as an exchange mechanism, and I find for the opposite.

Well, MG, I agree with your premises (outlined above) but I provide a correction to this quoted sentence. I do not, in fact find for illegality. I am still undecided.

I think that your argument does not convince me, because it omits something – I wish I could articulate what that is.
Whether accurate data can be accumulated or not may not be the point, though yes, I would find that to be helpful. I think that perhaps I am just balking at the idea that a uniform law may be applied to very non-uniform group of people. This strikes at a lot of other laws that already exist (laws controlling the nature of work, etc.). How could we ever tell which people would benefit from the proposed law, and which would suffer?

I think that ultimately, what is causing my "puritanical" reaction to the idea is that I think of prostitution as a form of slavery – a cold commodification of human beings. It seems absurd to me to place a system of law on this, and to allow it to continue – something akin to systems of law surrounding the slave trade in the early US. Doesn't that seem absurd?

Like you, I too appreciate this conversation. I'm really not sure there is a clear answer here, but laying out the topography of the argument has been a rewarding undertaking.

Very well said DA... I must give this some more thought

Quote:

I think that ultimately, what is causing my "puritanical" reaction to the idea is that I think of prostitution as a form of slavery – a cold commodification of human beings. It seems absurd to me to place a system of law on this, and to allow it to continue – something akin to systems of law surrounding the slave trade in the early US. Doesn't that seem absurd?

This is what I will focus on; some ideas are already ruminating.

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:13 am

I apologize for taking so long to get back to this thread good sir.

DA wrote:

I think that ultimately, what is causing my "puritanical" reaction to the idea is that I think of prostitution as a form of slavery – a cold commodification of human beings. It seems absurd to me to place a system of law on this, and to allow it to continue – something akin to systems of law surrounding the slave trade in the early US. Doesn't that seem absurd?

I've thought about this a great deal off and on.

I can not bring myself to think of prostitution as a form of slavery any more then I can think of any other willful "employment" humans offer as slavery. Basically every human that is employed offers up different parts of their body to their employer; such as a secretary offers up their hands to type, file, pick up the phone, etc.. Why should I not consider what the secretary does as slavery but consider what "parts" the prostitute offers up as slavery just because those "parts" are engaged in sex?

You could argue I suppose that all gainful employment is a loose form of slavery being as most of us have little actual choice but to integrate with the employment system.

DA wrote:

How could we ever tell which people would benefit from the proposed law, and which would suffer?

I won't argue that any group of laws that govern any human activity will benefit everyone. But such laws that require a prostitute to have frequent STD testing should be beneficial for most people that participate in the activity. Something else to think about. If prostitution was practiced openly, in a more public environment, it might eliminate much of the abuse associated with it being a cloistered activity in most areas where it is currently illegal. I would imagine most of the businesses in areas like Las Vegas, where prostitution is offered in a store-like environment, offer much greater safety to the prostitute from potentially violent clients.

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:04 am

Why is it illegal to pay for some one to have sex, but ok to pay some one to make a porno movie?

Just let the camera run and it's legal?

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:01 pm

baddogma wrote:

Why is it illegal to pay for some one to have sex, but ok to pay some one to make a porno movie?

Just let the camera run and it's legal?

It makes no sense to me either.

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:08 pm

Yes, me too. Sorry for taking so much time to add to this thread.

MockingGods wrote:

I can not bring myself to think of prostitution as a form of slavery any more then I can think of any other willful "employment" humans offer as slavery. Basically every human that is employed offers up different parts of their body to their employer; such as a secretary offers up their hands to type, file, pick up the phone, etc.. Why should I not consider what the secretary does as slavery but consider what "parts" the prostitute offers up as slavery just because those "parts" are engaged in sex? // You could argue I suppose that all gainful employment is a loose form of slavery being as most of us have little actual choice but to integrate with the employment system.

Yes, MG, but you and I have the ability to turn any thread into a polemic against the workaday hierarchies of any "employment" deemed exigent by the dominant. In short, we both grant that prostitution is slavery.

When we framed the debate this way, I think that the ultimate positive end for our discussion here would be that a few more human beings get treated with compassion than before. My thinking is that this leans toward a legalization model.* Secretaries get murdered by their bosses slightly less than prostitutes get murdered by their johns.

^{*We would have to consider Emancipation in the U.S. was a move from a slavery newly deemed illegal to a system of legal slavery. We would have to consider the slow transition of the naval press gang to a recruitment office to be a move to a system of legal slavery. Etc.}

MockingGods wrote:

DA wrote:

How could we ever tell which people would benefit from the proposed law, and which would suffer?

I won't argue that any group of laws that govern any human activity will benefit everyone. But such laws that require a prostitute to have frequent STD testing should be beneficial for most people that participate in the activity. Something else to think about. If prostitution was practiced openly, in a more public environment, it might eliminate much of the abuse associated with it being a cloistered activity in most areas where it is currently illegal. I would imagine most of the businesses in areas like Las Vegas, where prostitution is offered in a store-like environment, offer much greater safety to the prostitute from potentially violent clients.

This seems logical, as it appeals to a "law of averages" thinking. It is less likely that STDs will be passed with as great frequency as in a non-legal system. Still, when I flowchart the progress of a subject through a legalized prostitution system, there is still much room for the subject to drop out of and be forgotten by the system. Prostitutes, as I stated above, do not tend to be well aligned with this type of systematic process. We could certainly legalize prostitution, and even form institutions to help to "educate" and provide other "benefits" for once, current, or future prostitutes – but my confidence in the such a system you might find to be disappointingly low.

If you could describe a system that accounted for this "drop-out" condition, I would have reason for greater confidence.

MockingGods wrote:

baddogma wrote:

Why is it illegal to pay for some one to have sex, but ok to pay some one to make a porno movie? // Just let the camera run and it's legal?

It makes no sense to me either.

That makes three of us – though this "porn-ok/prostitution-bad" paradigm is not the same everywhere.

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:44 pm

DA wrote:

Yes, MG, but you and I have the ability to turn any thread into a polemic against the workaday hierarchies of any "employment" deemed exigent by the dominant. In short, we both grant that prostitution is slavery.

Yup, as long as we refer to all "gainful employment" as a form of slavery, I'm on board my friend Very Happy

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If you could describe a system that accounted for this "drop-out" condition, I would have reason for greater confidence.

If the system involves the typical, legalized, for-profit model I think we both agree the "drop-out" condition can never be completely accounted for. The "drop-out" condition would just be a new form of illegality, as it currently is in Nevada.

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Prostitutes, as I stated above, do not tend to be well aligned with this type of systematic process.

Perhaps what we should first want isn't legality, but a generalized, open acceptance of the practice. After we overcome our "hang-ups" concerning certain sexual practices, we can talk more efficiently about how to control and make them safier.

Excellent response by the way; enjoyed every word of it.

Edited... added some stuff

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:34 am

MockingGods wrote:

Perhaps what we should first want isn't legality, but a generalized, open acceptance of the practice. After we overcome our "hang-ups" concerning certain sexual practices, we can talk more efficiently about how to control and make them safier.

Indeed. But, this is a big step for so many people. I do wonder what would be the steps to take prior to this, to encourage these people to hang up their hang-ups?

MockingGods wrote:

The "drop-out" condition would just be a new form of illegality, as it currently is in Nevada.

How is this not a step back to "square one"? (Serious question.)

Confident Learner Joined: Sep 02, 2010 Posts: 67

WrathJW wrote:

Make prostitution legal and something you need to be over 21 with a state license to do and you take the pimps, the child prostitutes, and the abusive tricks out of it.

Voted no, and I agree with this statement, if you do this then it is not forced, so if its by choice why not. Wink

The rest of you are just making things complicated Rolling Eyes

what is it with slavery. And all that crap, in a capitalist system everything is slavery. simple as that Confused

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:22 pm

DA wrote:

Indeed. But, this is a big step for so many people. I do wonder what would be the steps to take prior to this, to encourage these people to hang up their hang-ups?

I've seen some, what I would consider, large changes is sexual acceptance in my life time. Just look at homosexuality for instance or the porn "industry". Prostitution has lagged somewhat behind, but I think it will eventually catch up.

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How is this not a step back to "square one"? (Serious question.)

It is a "step back".

kurdistan101 wrote:

The rest of you are just making things complicated Rolling Eyes

what is it with slavery. And all that crap, in a capitalist system everything is slavery. simple as that Confused

Yup, we tend to overanalyze things around here sometimes


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