So while the theistic model of god can be (virtually) dismissed out of hand due to its internal inconsistencies - the impossibility of something being simultaneously all powerful, all knowing, and all good - deism is a MUCH harder nut to crack. It doesn't take an intellectual giant to deduce that, armed with nothing more than common sense, a god who was all-powerful and all-good would not permit suffering [the problem of evil]. To me, this alone is a slam dunk argument against the god of the Xtian bible, and it's difficult for me to understand why people need any further convincing regarding the fictional god of the Xtian bible.
What seems practically impossible to discount, however, is a god that may be all powerful, but not all good - the deist god. Or a god that may be all good but not all powerful. Or a god that may be all powerful yet just doesn't give a crap, etc. As long as I have been pondering this, I have yet to find any convincing arguments AGAINST the god that deism supports.
Has anyone?
AliTheBandit Confident Learner
Joined: Jul 17, 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Germany
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:45 pm
No! You have fallen in the trap of the burden of proof fallacy XD .
You don't need any evidence AGAINST a deistic god until there is evidence FOR such a being.
Unless you know of any specific claims for a deistic god that are disprovable, that is.
_________________ Dog doesn't play dice.
It prefers bone.
No! You have fallen in the trap of the burden of proof fallacy XD .
You don't need any evidence AGAINST a deistic god until there is evidence FOR such a being.
Unless you know of any specific claims for a deistic god that are disprovable, that is.
Of course, I realize that evidence against X isnt required until there is evidence for X, but that's not really the point. There's no evidence for the existence of the Xtian god either, but we still step up to the plate in debates and tell them how flawed their thinking is and how fail their arguments are.
I was simply asking, how can the same be done with the deist model of god, or can it?
AliTheBandit Confident Learner
Joined: Jul 17, 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Germany
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:12 pm
Like I said, it can only be done if you have concrete claims.
However, most deists don't really have anything to offer. At least the few I know personally simply keep believing that there *must* be *something* else to this universe... yet they can't describe it or give any arguments.
You can't really argue with that. Luckily, deists are rarely if ever as fanatical as theists.
_________________ Dog doesn't play dice.
It prefers bone.
Like I said, it can only be done if you have concrete claims.
However, most deists don't really have anything to offer. At least the few I know personally simply keep believing that there *must* be *something* else to this universe... yet they can't describe it or give any arguments.
You can't really argue with that. Luckily, deists are rarely if ever as fanatical as theists.
Are you implying that Xtians have "concrete claims"? I don't think they do. Yet we debate them.
Rational Person: "Why do you believe that garbage?"
Xtian: "It's written in this Book!"
Rational Person: "You have absolutely no way of knowing that anything in that book is anything more than pure fiction."
Xtian: "Oh yeah? Well.... it's written in this Book!"
LoL
_________________ "Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that 50% of the population is dumber than THAT." - George Carlin
AliTheBandit Confident Learner
Joined: Jul 17, 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Germany
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:52 pm
"The Bible is the (inspired) word of god."
"Jesus is a historical figure and the son of god."
"Jesus died and rose from the dead."
etc, etc.
Even if these may be ridiculous to you, christians make HUNDREDS of claims, many of which are falsifiable.
That's why its possible to debate them.
Deism doesn't make any claims at all, as far as I know.
Deist: "I believe that there is *something* else to this universe."
Rational Person: "What makes you say that? Can you prove it?"
Deist: "No, but I really feel like there is *something*."
Rational Person: "..."
See the difference?
_________________ Dog doesn't play dice.
It prefers bone.
"The Bible is the (inspired) word of god."
"Jesus is a historical figure and the son of god."
"Jesus died and rose from the dead."
etc, etc.
Even if these may be ridiculous to you, christians make HUNDREDS of claims, many of which are falsifiable.
That's why its possible to debate them.
Deism doesn't make any claims at all, as far as I know.
Deist: "I believe that there is *something* else to this universe."
Rational Person: "What makes you say that? Can you prove it?"
Deist: "No, but I really feel like there is *something*."
Rational Person: "..."
See the difference?
Hahah, yes, yes I do.
Xtian: "The Bible is the inspired word of God."
Rational Person: "Objection, your honor - hearsay." "Sustained!"
Xtian: "Jesus is a historical figure and the son of God."
Rational Person: "Objection, your honor - hearsay." "Sustained!"
Xtian: "Jesus died and rose from the dead."
Rational Person: "Objection, your honor - hearsay." "Sustained!"
At least deists aren't as monotanous.....
[There's actually really no substantial evidence that Jesus even existed as a historical figure - but if you've been listening to Dr. Price you already know that.]
xD
_________________ "Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that 50% of the population is dumber than THAT." - George Carlin
Cygnus Graduate Thinker
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 581
Location: Caught Somewhere in Time
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:30 pm
Here is my take: a deist thinks a god may have created the universe but is beyond human understanding. A rational person would say that there is no real point in wondering if a god beyond human comprehension exists because such a god is unknowable. It's just like Kant's
ding an sich
.
_________________ "Buddha says: "Do not flatter thy benefactor!" Let one repeat this saying in a Christian church: it immediately purifies the air of all Christianity."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
infidelguy Site Admin
Joined: Feb 21, 1999
Posts: 5397
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:40 pm
Exactly.... saying Deism is a tougher nut to crack is like saying Pantheism is a tough nut to crack. If they aren't offering any arguments or at least make any claims, there is nothing really to argue. No nut to crack.
In my conversations with Deists, they will often say, there's gotta be "something". The question however is, is that "some thing" conscious? If they agree as many deists I know concede that there is or was a consciousness, then this is a claim that must be supported. If that cannot be done, they have nothing but belief and faith in this idea. Which places them uncomfortably and dangerously close to the plethora of other irrational theistic beliefs.
_________________ ----
"To be truly open-minded is to accept the possibility that you may be wrong." - R.Finley Sr.
Raskolnikov The Learned
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:26 pm
Deism is a type of theism. The have no proof for their Creator, same as Christians. I don't see how it's not as easily dismissed.
_________________ "I did not bow down to you, I bowed down to all the suffering of humanity."
- Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Crime and Punishment"
Cygnus Graduate Thinker
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 581
Location: Caught Somewhere in Time
Posted:
Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:09 pm
Until there is reason to believe something, then there is NO reason to believe something. It is really that simple.
_________________ "Buddha says: "Do not flatter thy benefactor!" Let one repeat this saying in a Christian church: it immediately purifies the air of all Christianity."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:17 pm
Greyfax wrote:
So while the theistic model of god can be (virtually) dismissed out of hand due to its internal inconsistencies - the impossibility of something being simultaneously all powerful, all knowing, and all good - deism is a MUCH harder nut to crack. It doesn't take an intellectual giant to deduce that, armed with nothing more than common sense, a god who was all-powerful and all-good would not permit suffering [the problem of evil]. To me, this alone is a slam dunk argument against the god of the Xtian bible, and it's difficult for me to understand why people need any further convincing regarding the fictional god of the Xtian bible.
What seems practically impossible to discount, however, is a god that may be all powerful, but not all good - the deist god. Or a god that may be all good but not all powerful. Or a god that may be all powerful yet just doesn't give a crap, etc. As long as I have been pondering this, I have yet to find any convincing arguments AGAINST the god that deism supports.
Has anyone?
As some have pointed out. If there is no good answer to the question "how do you tell if it exists or not?" you are prefectly justified in not belieivng.
I think the worst mark against deism is irrelevance because there is no way to tell if this thing exists. Even if it exists, it might as well not exist.
MockingGods Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 5693
Location: Planet Earth
Posted:
Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:54 pm
Kmisho wrote:
I think the worst mark against deism is irrelevance because there is no way to tell if this thing exists. Even if it exists, it might as well not exist.
Very true.
Also, most Deists believe this god stepped away from the universe and is ambivalent to our existence. What possible benefit can come from believing in an ambivalent god, even if it should exist?
I think deism, much like agnosticism, was developed to alleviate the possibility of conflict that almost always arises when confronting the typical monotheist. In the theist’s mind, a deist is ok because they believe in a god, the agnostic is ok because their ignorance is ripe for the picking, but the atheist’s outright rejection is a stopping point or point of direct contention.
Vic333 Newbie
Joined: Aug 05, 2008
Posts: 13
Posted:
Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:12 pm
Deism is just a cop out. It may have had some validity before our current understanding of physics, but there is no need for it today.
_________________ I don't have a signature yet.
tapey Just Arrived
Joined: Feb 22, 2009
Posts: 1
Posted:
Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:50 pm
MockingGods wrote:
Kmisho wrote:
I think the worst mark against deism is irrelevance because there is no way to tell if this thing exists. Even if it exists, it might as well not exist.
Very true.
Also, most Deists believe this god stepped away from the universe and is ambivalent to our existence. What possible benefit can come from believing in an ambivalent god, even if it should exist?
It's not about use it's about truth as atheist's quite like saying. There is no benefit or use it's just what they believe. It is very hard to disprove as their are no claims besides there must be something conscious or not.
View next topic View previous topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
