Evidence of a real "God"??

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

There are dozens of ancient civilizations that created wonders of the Ancient world that can't be replicated today with ancient technology and in some cases even with modern technology.

The easiest one to prove is the moving of colossal stones. dozens of sites aroung the world moved thousands of stones well over 50 tons including at over 100 stones over 100 tons each in 4 continents.

The biggest stone moved with ancient technology in recent times that has been documented isn't much if any more than 10 tons. there have been some claims of experiments that moved larger stones but they haven't been well supported. In one case Thor Heyerdahl failed to move one and somehow interpretted it as a sucess.

I have listed many of these on the following page:

107 Wonders of the Ancient World
http://www.geocities.com/zacherystaylor/cultstructures.htm

This doesn't prove the religious version of God that can easily and conclusively be disproven. If God existed and he was honest he would earn trust by comunicating since he refuses to do this the trustworthy God is out of the question.

If this is a real unknown advanced intelligence that has come to be known as "God" then it is a God who inspired religion and arranged for religious leaders to use indoctrination tactics to glorify him. these indoctrination tactics were used to obtain trust in deceptive ways.

So If there is a real "God" then he is a cult leader and a con artist.

Any explanation as to how these rocks upto at least 700 tons if not 1,000 tons were moved?

How the large volume of stone statues were carved?

The tight joints of Inca walls and Egyptian Pyramids were made?

How they moved over 700 tons each day to build the great pyramid?
If they took longer than the 23 years of Khufu's rule how they kept the project going through several Pharaohs?

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:22 am

I've heard these types of objections raised before concerning ancient human technology in constructing large structures, and I've yet to hear any non-human explanation for these constructions that was satisfying. It's possible there's a non-human natural explanation for these seemingly impossible feats, but it doesn't seem likely. There's no direct evidence to suggest humans, using human ingenuity, aren't responsible for these constructs. It's like saying the human body is to complex to arise from unconscious natural mechanisms.

Quote:

There are dozens of ancient civilizations that created wonders of the Ancient world that can't be replicated today with ancient technology and in some cases even with modern technology.

I italicized "can't" in this sentence because it makes an absolute statement. If you had said "haven't" and shown evidence to back it up, I might have let this pass. I've seen plenty of presentations showing possible and even the direct, ancient methods used in the construction of many of these seemingly "impossible" structures. For instance, there is little doubt that the Egyptian pyramids (and other massive, Egyptian structures) were indeed constructed by humans using ancient tools and technology. There is plenty of archeological evidence persisting to this day that depicts the methods and tools they used.

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:51 am

Funny - instead of teaching the ancient people about germs, electricity, mathematics and so forth, the only things those "gods" supposedly told them were how to move big stones...? lol. Very Happy

But seriously, I see no need whatsoever to come to the conclusion that the ancient people needed outside help to get things done.

After all, they had hundreds, if not thousands of years to perfect their technology. It's unwise and perhaps even a bit arrogant to think that if some modern guys aren't able to experimentally figure out how it was done in a couple of months, then it must be impossible...
Nowadays we have simply forgotten how to work with these gigantic stones.

So it wouldn't surprise me if the ancient "stone-moving-techniques" were much more efficient than our current methods, but that's no reason to believe they had to have help from a higher intelligence.

You have to take into consideration that humans back then - from a purely biological point of view - were no less clever than we are now.
Add the long timespan and the enormous manpower to that and those wonders don't seem as impossible at all.

It's still quite interesting, though. I guess this would constitute as another job for the mythbusters Very Happy

.
On todays show: How to build a pyramid... and how to blow it up!!! XD

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

MockingGods wrote:

I've heard these types of objections raised before concerning ancient human technology in constructing large structures, and I've yet to hear any non-human explanation for these constructions that was satisfying. It's possible there's a non-human natural explanation for these seemingly impossible feats, but it doesn't seem likely. There's no direct evidence to suggest humans, using human ingenuity, aren't responsible for these constructs. It's like saying the human body is to complex to arise from unconscious natural mechanisms.

I havn't heard a non human explanation that was satisfying or a human explanation that was satisfying. Most of the nonhuman explanations being promoted by the traditional press are full of obvious and stupid mistakes but so are the human explanation. I'm not saying I know trhe answer but if you don't even ackowledge the ovious mistakes you'll never figure it out.

MockingGods wrote:

Quote:

There are dozens of ancient civilizations that created wonders of the Ancient world that can't be replicated today with ancient technology and in some cases even with modern technology.

I italicized "can't" in this sentence because it makes an absolute statement. If you had said "haven't" and shown evidence to back it up, I might have let this pass. I've seen plenty of presentations showing possible and even the direct, ancient methods used in the construction of many of these seemingly "impossible" structures. For instance, there is little doubt that the Egyptian pyramids (and other massive, Egyptian structures) were indeed constructed by humans using ancient tools and technology. There is plenty of archeological evidence persisting to this day that depicts the methods and tools they used.

I cited several experiments on the web site and plenty of sources although not all of them are above reproach. actualy none of them can explain it. there is some archeological evidence to prove some of it including carved reliefs in Egypt and Ninevah but experiments to replicate the same methods failed. Carving the Granite was done with dolorite balls as is explained in the site. that involves chipping away a few flakes at a time. They carved thousand of tons of granite this way.

inconcievaqble yet true!

Take a closer look before you come to hard conclusions. I put a lot more information on the site that already rebuts your comments.

There is a legitimate mystery here and your explanation doesn't cover it.

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

AliTheBandit wrote:

Funny - instead of teaching the ancient people about germs, electricity, mathematics and so forth, the only things those "gods" supposedly told them were how to move big stones...? lol. Very Happy

that is a very good point even if you intended it as a joke.

If these "gods" do exist and they influenced these structures what could they gain by it?

I'm not saying this is the answer it is just speculation. But if it is then surely they had more in mind than that. And they clearly weren't putting the best interest of the human race at the top of the list of priorities. If they were looking out for our best interest they would have started out by setting up an education system as you imply. Which is why I concluded that if they do exist they would be cult leaders.

AliTheBandit wrote:

But seriously, I see no need whatsoever to come to the conclusion that the ancient people needed outside help to get things done.

After all, they had hundreds, if not thousands of years to perfect their technology. It's unwise and perhaps even a bit arrogant to think that if some modern guys aren't able to experimentally figure out how it was done in a couple of months, then it must be impossible...
Nowadays we have simply forgotten how to work with these gigantic stones.

They've been trying to figure this out for years modern Guys have been at it for decades but less modern guys have been at it for centuries.

AliTheBandit wrote:

So it wouldn't surprise me if the ancient "stone-moving-techniques" were much more efficient than our current methods, but that's no reason to believe they had to have help from a higher intelligence.

You have to take into consideration that humans back then - from a purely biological point of view - were no less clever than we are now.
Add the long timespan and the enormous manpower to that and those wonders don't seem as impossible at all.

It's still quite interesting, though. I guess this would constitute as another job for the mythbusters Very Happy

.
On todays show: How to build a pyramid... and how to blow it up!!! XD

True that they were just as clever modern technology is partly a result of improved cooperation and organization. But It is still not even close.

Funny you should mention blowing it up since the Arabs did try to destroy the smallest one at Giza and failed miserably. That should be on the section about Giza pyramids or the valley temple.

Not only couldn't they build it but they couldn't destroy it!!

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:44 am

Yeah, I recall seeing photos of bombed ancient statues and buildings, most of which didn't seem that damaged (luckily). I suppose it's a bit like trying to blow up a mountain. You need a tzar-bomb at least XD .

But even if we couldn't explain these mysteries after many years of well funded worldwide research, there still wouldn't be a particular reason to link them to alien help.

When we choose to open the door to one supernatural/ paranormal explanation, many more doors open at the same time.

What if humans were a lot stronger at that time?
What if they were able to use telekinesis?
Or perhaps the gravity of the earth was weaker back then...
All supernatural explanations have in common that they explain a few problems, but ultimately add many more.

For example, if you propose they had help from godlike aliens, then what we should expect to see - apart from ooparts from those visitors - would be nothing but primitve buildings for a long time in history followed by a sudden burst of magnificent architectural masterpieces.

But what we find is a gradual improvement, starting small, going bigger and better with time. We also see a lot of failures inbetween - which is fairly human-like.

I'm pretty confident that if we could find 100.000 people willing to work for 20 years, we wouldn't have much trouble creating replica of the pyramids of giza without modern technology.
The problem lies in finding the volunteers...

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:13 am

zacherystaylor wrote:

I havn't heard a non human explanation that was satisfying or a human explanation that was satisfying. Most of the nonhuman explanations being promoted by the traditional press are full of obvious and stupid mistakes but so are the human explanation. I'm not saying I know trhe answer but if you don't even ackowledge the ovious mistakes you'll never figure it out.

I don't mind you being inquisitive about the subject, in fact, I support this questioning nature. You seem however to be positing a supernatural explanation, which seems somewhat naive given the nature of these structures.

Quote:

I cited several experiments on the web site and plenty of sources although not all of them are above reproach. actualy none of them can explain it. there is some archeological evidence to prove some of it including carved reliefs in Egypt and Ninevah but experiments to replicate the same methods failed. Carving the Granite was done with dolorite balls as is explained in the site. that involves chipping away a few flakes at a time. They carved thousand of tons of granite this way.

Yes, and the Egyptians had an entire population (not to mention their slaves) devoted to their king gods who were willing to spend their lives "chipping away".

Quote:

There is a legitimate mystery here and your explanation doesn't cover it.

A mystery perhaps, but one that most likely has a human explanation behind it. Notice how I used the words "most likely". I use these words because any competing explanation is "less likely".

Newbie Joined: Aug 30, 2008 Posts: 10

I watched a special on Stonehenge on the History channel, and it showed many theories of how ancient people may have moved megaliths(giant stones), but most agree that it was probably done using long logs carved to be almost perfectly round. There would be a rope with several men to pull along a single stone on several logs, and two men would have to quickly move logs from the tail end, and bring them to the front. Apparently this would be a very dangerous way to do it, but the most effective. As you can imagine this sounds like a very reasonable way to do it.

I don't believe this topic even deserves the thought of the possibility of something divine or extra-terrestrial might have caused these stones to move. In fact the very idea of this being the work of some other worldly being is just ridiculous, and sounds like an argument people may have made before the 18th century. Just because we don't understand something fully doesn't mean there isn't a reasonable explanation, just like now we know that god isn't the reason it rains, or that that the earth isn't flat.

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

AliTheBandit wrote:

Yeah, I recall seeing photos of bombed ancient statues and buildings, most of which didn't seem that damaged (luckily). I suppose it's a bit like trying to blow up a mountain. You need a tzar-bomb at least XD .

That wasn't the case I was refering to I was refering to something that happenned close to a thousand years ago where Saladins Hier tried to tear apart a pyramid but coudn't remove more than 1 stone per day. It is in the section about the Giza pyramids if your interested. However your right ther have been many more you might be refering to the Buddha and the taliban but this goes way back hundreds more have been destroyed and they don't enter into evidence just speculation.

AliTheBandit wrote:

But even if we couldn't explain these mysteries after many years of well funded worldwide research, there still wouldn't be a particular reason to link them to alien help.

When we choose to open the door to one supernatural/ paranormal explanation, many more doors open at the same time.

What if humans were a lot stronger at that time?
What if they were able to use telekinesis?
Or perhaps the gravity of the earth was weaker back then...
All supernatural explanations have in common that they explain a few problems, but ultimately add many more.

It is possible and probable for people to have been stronger at the time evolution favored the strong before people starting using there brains this may have reversed when civilization developed. But it would be a slow process evolution is always slow. It wouldn't be nearly enough to explain the fact that they moved stonesmore than 20 times bigger than the experiments can replicate.

I would want some more to go on before I spent time on telekinesis. Can it be replicated? How? Until these questions and more can be answered I would consider it unlikely.

Yes they add more questions but that is the way the evidence points. Science routinely deals with new questions that is part of the deal.

AliTheBandit wrote:

For example, if you propose they had help from godlike aliens, then what we should expect to see - apart from ooparts from those visitors - would be nothing but primitve buildings for a long time in history followed by a sudden burst of magnificent architectural masterpieces.

But what we find is a gradual improvement, starting small, going bigger and better with time. We also see a lot of failures inbetween - which is fairly human-like.

I doubt if Gods would be concerned with Opart.
There was primitive buildings for a long time then a sudden burst in Egypt followed by a slow decline then another burst with Amenhotep III decline and burst with Ramses II and more decline until it all fell apart.

The improvements are the ones that should have been gradual and it is possible for a war to cause a sudden collapse. This is backwards.

AliTheBandit wrote:

I'm pretty confident that if we could find 100.000 people willing to work for 20 years, we wouldn't have much trouble creating replica of the pyramids of giza without modern technology.
The problem lies in finding the volunteers...

Good do it!! Razz

building it in 20 years would involve carving hauling and installing 800 tons of stone every day no days off for 20 years. Good luck Wink

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

MockingGods wrote:

zacherystaylor wrote:

I havn't heard a non human explanation that was satisfying or a human explanation that was satisfying. Most of the nonhuman explanations being promoted by the traditional press are full of obvious and stupid mistakes but so are the human explanation. I'm not saying I know trhe answer but if you don't even ackowledge the ovious mistakes you'll never figure it out.

I don't mind you being inquisitive about the subject, in fact, I support this questioning nature. You seem however to be positing a supernatural explanation, which seems somewhat naive given the nature of these structures.

first of all I'm just speculating about some things. Second of all I define Majic, supernatural or paranormal as a trick slight of hand or science the audience doesn't undertand. So if you call it supernaturel I assume you mean unexplained science and I agree it is unexplained. Wink

Quote:

I cited several experiments on the web site and plenty of sources although not all of them are above reproach. actualy none of them can explain it. there is some archeological evidence to prove some of it including carved reliefs in Egypt and Ninevah but experiments to replicate the same methods failed. Carving the Granite was done with dolorite balls as is explained in the site. that involves chipping away a few flakes at a time. They carved thousand of tons of granite this way.

MockingGods wrote:

Yes, and the Egyptians had an entire population (not to mention their slaves) devoted to their king gods who were willing to spend their lives "chipping away".

Quote:

There is a legitimate mystery here and your explanation doesn't cover it.

A mystery perhaps, but one that most likely has a human explanation behind it. Notice how I used the words "most likely". I use these words because any competing explanation is "less likely".

I agree it is mostly if not entirely created by Humans but there is more to it than that. How? Is it partly with the help of an unknown advanced intelligence? It doesn't seem likely I agree but if the circumstancal evidence mounts to support this possibility it would be a good idea to consider it and figure out what if anything there is to it.

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

Gedd wrote:

I watched a special on Stonehenge on the History channel, and it showed many theories of how ancient people may have moved megaliths(giant stones), but most agree that it was probably done using long logs carved to be almost perfectly round. There would be a rope with several men to pull along a single stone on several logs, and two men would have to quickly move logs from the tail end, and bring them to the front. Apparently this would be a very dangerous way to do it, but the most effective. As you can imagine this sounds like a very reasonable way to do it.

I don't believe this topic even deserves the thought of the possibility of something divine or extra-terrestrial might have caused these stones to move. In fact the very idea of this being the work of some other worldly being is just ridiculous, and sounds like an argument people may have made before the 18th century. Just because we don't understand something fully doesn't mean there isn't a reasonable explanation, just like now we know that god isn't the reason it rains, or that that the earth isn't flat.

Stonehenge is one of the best known wonders of the ancient world because it is in England a leader of the western culture but it doesn't even make the top 50 list of the most difficult to replicate.

If you don't want to take a closer look that is your choice but if you do you might find that the closer you look the more it appears that the official explanations can't even come close to explaining this as I found when I started looking closer. I didn't start out paying much attention to this at all but it seems that there is something to this. What I don't know.

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:03 am

zacherystaylor wrote:

I would want some more to go on before I spent time on telekinesis. Can it be replicated? How? Until these questions and more can be answered I would consider it unlikely.

Thats my point - a supernatural explanation is too easy, its not even worth trying to explain a mystery with an even greater mystery.
The gods-hypothesis belongs to the same category - until some positive evidence for it is found.
Which at the moment is inexistent.

zacherystaylor wrote:

I doubt if Gods would be concerned with Opart.

Ooparts = Out of place artifacts.
Not optical art XD.
If we ever have been visited by a highly evolved civilization it is almost inevitable that they should have left traces, whether tools or materials that shouldn't have existed at that time.
But what is found at those places are usually pretty simple tools and materials, nothing unexpected.

zacherystaylor wrote:

There was primitive buildings for a long time then a sudden burst in Egypt [...]

What you describe as a "burst" took hundreds of years... The first pyramids were pretty badly constructed. It took them very long to figure out the ideal proportions and find the right techniques so that the buildings didn't collapse.
If they received alien help then all of their buildings should have been perfect.
Aside from that, pyramids are the simplest type of buildings there is... hardly something superintelligent aliens would make.

But the more serious problems for this idea are others. Why would aliens teach the egyptians and other cultures how to build pyramids as graves for the pharaos so that they can rot there till the end of time?
Seriously, it just doesn't make any sense...
A pyramid is obviously something a human leader would want to have to be remembered forever, why should aliens help him with something silly as that?
Oh, and lastly - we do have historical texts from those periods - interesting that visitors from heaven are never mentioned Very Happy

.

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:55 am

zacherystaylor wrote:

first of all I'm just speculating about some things. Second of all I define Majic, supernatural or paranormal as a trick slight of hand or science the audience doesn't undertand. So if you call it supernaturel I assume you mean unexplained science and I agree it is unexplained.

When I use the word "supernatural" I'm generally referring to something that is not-natural; what many people conclude to be a theistic entity or a god. If we naturalize a god as a "trick of hand", it would seem to loose it's mystical, godlike power and would become something mundane; not worthy of worship.

Quote:

I agree it is mostly if not entirely created by Humans but there is more to it than that. How? Is it partly with the help of an unknown advanced intelligence? It doesn't seem likely I agree but if the circumstancal evidence mounts to support this possibility it would be a good idea to consider it and figure out what if anything there is to it.

I've no problem speculating that some of these extreme engineering feats were aided by non-human or perhaps even extraterrestrial intelligence, even though I find the likelihood extremely unlikely. My main objection would be calling these possible non-human benefactors "gods". If they existed, they certainly might appear to have godlike abilities, but then modern, human technology would also seem godlike to prehistoric humans.

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

AliTheBandit wrote:

zacherystaylor wrote:

I would want some more to go on before I spent time on telekinesis. Can it be replicated? How? Until these questions and more can be answered I would consider it unlikely.

Thats my point - a supernatural explanation is too easy, its not even worth trying to explain a mystery with an even greater mystery.
The gods-hypothesis belongs to the same category - until some positive evidence for it is found.
Which at the moment is inexistent.

zacherystaylor wrote:

I doubt if Gods would be concerned with Opart.

Ooparts = Out of place artifacts.
Not optical art XD.
If we ever have been visited by a highly evolved civilization it is almost inevitable that they should have left traces, whether tools or materials that shouldn't have existed at that time.
But what is found at those places are usually pretty simple tools and materials, nothing unexpected.

zacherystaylor wrote:

There was primitive buildings for a long time then a sudden burst in Egypt [...]

What you describe as a "burst" took hundreds of years... The first pyramids were pretty badly constructed. It took them very long to figure out the ideal proportions and find the right techniques so that the buildings didn't collapse.
If they received alien help then all of their buildings should have been perfect.
Aside from that, pyramids are the simplest type of buildings there is... hardly something superintelligent aliens would make.

But the more serious problems for this idea are others. Why would aliens teach the egyptians and other cultures how to build pyramids as graves for the pharaos so that they can rot there till the end of time?
Seriously, it just doesn't make any sense...
A pyramid is obviously something a human leader would want to have to be remembered forever, why should aliens help him with something silly as that?
Oh, and lastly - we do have historical texts from those periods - interesting that visitors from heaven are never mentioned Very Happy

.

There is a lot of mythology about telekinesis but that isn't proof that I would consider sufficient any more than you. Much of this was from catholic "saints". not a reliable source. Uri Geller and John Hagelin have both claimed to do something similar but what was presented to the public from either of them is lame. As far as I know there hasn't been anything substantial along these lines certainly not that was presented to the public.

It would be hard to tell what this advanced intelligence was trying to acomplish without sufficient information but something farfetched is going on. It required an advanced intelligence to create these but they used it for a seemingly useless and as you say silly purpose.

The historical text don't cove the times of Khufu very well. the best historical text are from Deir el medina for Egypt any way. there is a section on that if your interested just below Queen Hapshet. I need to update the links I'll get that soon.

Something is going on no matter what it doesn't seem to make any sense yet somehow it must it is just a matter of finding the missing puzzle pieces. Pretending the mystery doesn't exist won't do it.

Post Noob Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 58

MockingGods wrote:

zacherystaylor wrote:

first of all I'm just speculating about some things. Second of all I define Majic, supernatural or paranormal as a trick slight of hand or science the audience doesn't undertand. So if you call it supernaturel I assume you mean unexplained science and I agree it is unexplained.

When I use the word "supernatural" I'm generally referring to something that is not-natural; what many people conclude to be a theistic entity or a god. If we naturalize a god as a "trick of hand", it would seem to loose it's mystical, godlike power and would become something mundane; not worthy of worship.

God is definitly not worthy of worship. A God that inspires religion and remains silent while people fight one war after another is not benevelent or worthy of worship no matter what. This would be a con artist God!!

It is the hype and lies that religious people worhip nothing could live upto that they are dead wrong about God.

MockingGods wrote:

Quote:

I agree it is mostly if not entirely created by Humans but there is more to it than that. How? Is it partly with the help of an unknown advanced intelligence? It doesn't seem likely I agree but if the circumstancal evidence mounts to support this possibility it would be a good idea to consider it and figure out what if anything there is to it.

I've no problem speculating that some of these extreme engineering feats were aided by non-human or perhaps even extraterrestrial intelligence, even though I find the likelihood extremely unlikely. My main objection would be calling these possible non-human benefactors "gods". If they existed, they certainly might appear to have godlike abilities, but then modern, human technology would also seem godlike to prehistoric humans.

My point exactly. If they exist they have been distorted by the hype and mythology. they are definatly not what religious people choose to believe. they are Gods in the same sense that Paraohs were elevated to the status of a God by hype and lies.

There are also cases where people were elevated to the status of Gods in angkor, Greece, Rome and many other places. No matter what religion is a con.

Part of the point I'm trying to make iss that they shouldn't be worshiped no matter what and whether I'm right or not a better education system needs to be set up a better democracy and better protection for the envirnment etc.


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