Free Will

Just Arrived Joined: May 31, 2008 Posts: 2

Seekah wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

A god who allows multiple outcomes DOES NOT know the future.

Indeed. He would only know all of the possible outcomes. You cannot know the future with certainty, yet have there be a chance you could be wrong. It's not logical. Thus we have no real choice but to conform to the immutable future. If the future is not immutable, then God cannot know for sure what the future will hold because it could change.

HI

This is just 'rubbish' A God can know ALL POSSIBLE outcomes and NOT know ALL [or none] ACTUAL outcomes.

BUT...............

OR

God could know ALL POSSIBLE outcomes and KNOW ALL ACTUAL outcomes

OR

ALL POSSIBLE outcomes are ALL ACTUAL outcomes and therefore if one know all possible outcomes they would therefore know all actual outcomes.

simple modal logic.

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:17 am

Missionary wrote:

self-determinism: a doctrine that the actions of a self are determined by itself. (This is CAUSE by Free Will)

Self-determinism can not exist in a reality where the future is immutable. This is the reality where any entity knows all future events and actions absolutely. This is determinism.

Quote:

Determinism (also called antiserendipity) is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behaviour, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

It's hard to believe not you're smart enough to understand that complete and absolute knowledge of the future means reality must be deterministic. Rolling Eyes

Again I'm going to ask you a question along this line of reasoning without the theological obfuscations.

Do you actually believe the human decision making process operates free of external stimuli?

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 515

Quote:

ALL POSSIBLE outcomes are ALL ACTUAL outcomes and therefore if one know all possible outcomes they would therefore know all actual outcomes.

But does he know which one will be chosen? Only one can happen. Which one will it be?

Newbie Joined: May 30, 2008 Posts: 10

He must know what the actual outcome that WILL determine what happens in our reality so that he can act out his DEVINE plan. Therefore there is no free will. Freewill WITH God is impossible.. If we have free will there is NO God.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

self-determinism: a doctrine that the actions of a self are determined by itself. (This is CAUSE by Free Will)

Self-determinism can not exist in a reality where the future is immutable. This is the reality where any entity knows all future events and actions absolutely. This is determinism.

Quote:

Determinism (also called antiserendipity) is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behaviour, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

It's hard to believe not you're smart enough to understand that complete and absolute knowledge of the future means reality must be deterministic. Rolling Eyes

Again I'm going to ask you a question along this line of reasoning without the theological obfuscations.

Do you actually believe the human decision making process operates free of external stimuli?

The answer is no. External stimuli causes us to face decisions. So does internal stimuli such as health, emotions, and opinions. Events outside of our control cause us to adapt to and control our reaction/response on a constant and ongoing basis. We most certainly have free will as we learn from our decisions and adjust our future decisions based upon success or failure of past decisions.

If you add a being who foresees all these decisions in advance, I don't understand why you then insist that that our decisions are determined by that being.

If you simply mean to say that the beings accurate foresight is immutable and will come to pass precisely as it is seen in advance, then I agree. However, the important aspect of this is that the being's foresight CONFORMS to the future choices being made by the individual. It's NOT a case whereby the individuals future choice conforms or obeys to the beings willful determination that a certain choice MUST BE made as caused or determined by the being.

In other words, we have free will to choose within boundaries of law without being forced to make a certain choice by the being who sees our ultimate decision in advance. The being does not cause or force us to choose A over B or B over A; we are granted the right to genuinely choose A or B...AND He already knows the choice in advance.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

ALL POSSIBLE outcomes are ALL ACTUAL outcomes and therefore if one know all possible outcomes they would therefore know all actual outcomes.

But does he know which one will be chosen? Only one can happen. Which one will it be?

Yes He foresees the choice and as a result foreknows the decision. This does not mean the being-entity caused the decision by force of His will. The choice was genuine AND He sees it in advance.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 515

Therefore, there is nothing men can do to alter the future as they don't know the possible outcomes themselves, therefore free will doesn't exist.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Cygnus wrote:

Therefore, there is nothing men can do to alter the future as they don't know the possible outcomes themselves, therefore free will doesn't exist.

You're trying to stuff a conclusion into a box. You have freedom of choice to do whatever you want within the laws of this country. Choose a college, travel abroad, date/marry your choice, go to the movies or not go to the movies, change the tv channel, order steak or chicken, turn left or right, buy a blue shirt or black, wear khaki's or blue jeans, accept God or reject Him. You get to decide.

The choice is yours to make. God sees your choice in advance. His knowledge of your choice conformed in advance to whatever you chose in the future. You have free will. God has omniscience. It's that simple.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:05 am

Missionary,

I assume you believe God created us. If God created us, and he is omniscient, then he knew BEFORE he created us what our decisions would be. I ask you... If he knew what we would choose before he created us then how can we have true free will? He created us, knowing what we would do. If he caused a life to be born, knowing everything that will happen, then he is the cause of all of that life's decisions ultimately.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Seekah wrote:

Missionary,

I assume you believe God created us. If God created us, and he is omniscient, then he knew BEFORE he created us what our decisions would be. I ask you... If he knew what we would choose before he created us then how can we have true free will? He created us, knowing what we would do. If he caused a life to be born, knowing everything that will happen, then he is the cause of all of that life's decisions ultimately.

Even in pre-creation the foresight of future choice is left to the created person. The fact that God created that person knowing what their choice would ultimately be still does not imply that God caused or determined the future choice. What some have implied from this "pre-creation foreknowledge" is that God knowingly created persons who He knew in advance would choose to reject Him and that He would punish those persons eternally. This is seen as cruel, unjust, and unfair.

However, this is without consideration of the Millennial Kingdom which is described in Rev 20. This is a 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth which is then followed by the Great White Throne Judgment at the end. It is at this judgment that satan and his minions are thrown into the lake of fire along with hell and death. Notice exactly who is cast in here:

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The ONLY possible mention of people is

Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The question remains, who will be counted in the number of those "whosoever was not found written in the book of life"??

That is something we don't know. It's possible that God will indeed reconcile all mankind to Himself during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth but that is uncertain and there is not much written about it. Hell and the "great gulf" between it and the city of God as described by Jesus could represent those who live within the Kingdom (accepted) during the 1000 year reign and those who live without(rejected) the kingdom. Again this is one theological position taken from several scriptural texts including Rev 19-22.

What do we lack? Is the big picture. God has revealed in part and given us enough info to choose. We don't know all the details of His eternal plans and can only speculate to a certain extent. With that in mind, we trust that God is actually as He has described Himself as loving, kind, merciful, forgiving, just, and fair. Therefore, we may not understand all of what awaits us but we can trust that it is entirely for good.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:49 am

Quote:

Even in pre-creation the foresight of future choice is left to the created person. The fact that God created that person knowing what their choice would ultimately be still does not imply that God caused or determined the future choice. What some have implied from this "pre-creation foreknowledge" is that God knowingly created persons who He knew in advance would choose to reject Him and that He would punish those persons eternally. This is seen as cruel, unjust, and unfair.

It seems strange that God would create a person who is destined for hell (forgive the choice of word, but by now I'm sure you grasp what I mean). Why not create only people who will accept him?

Edit: addendum: I would say that it does mean that God caused the future choice. If I were able to create a bomb and I knew in advance that the bomb WOULD kill hundreds of people, then I am responsible for the deaths.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 515

Quote:

You're trying to stuff a conclusion into a box. You have freedom of choice to do whatever you want within the laws of this country. Choose a college, travel abroad, date/marry your choice, go to the movies or not go to the movies, change the tv channel, order steak or chicken, turn left or right, buy a blue shirt or black, wear khaki's or blue jeans, accept God or reject Him. You get to decide.

Is my country God?

Assuming god knows all my choices before I make them, then how can I make a choice and that choice be a free choice?

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:55 am

Missionary wrote:

External stimuli causes us to face decisions.

Not only do external stimuli compel (cause) us into the decision making process, these stimuli are also a means by which we form our decisions.

Quote:

So does internal stimuli such as health, emotions, and opinions.

Yes, the decision making process is a bio-environmental process, and we have about the same personal control over our biology as we do our environment, basically none.

Quote:

Events outside of our control cause us to adapt to and control our reaction/response on a constant and ongoing basis.

Indeed, our decision making process is a reaction to events beyond our control.

Quote:

We most certainly have free will as we learn from our decisions and adjust our future decisions based upon success or failure of past decisions.

You are arguing a contradiction here. Perhaps I don’t understand what you mean by “free” when combining it with “will”. Free tends to suggest our will (decision process) is free of external coercion, when it’s obvious we form these conclusions based upon bio-environmental pressures, which are not within the purview of our personal control.

Quote:

If you add a being who foresees all these decisions in advance, I don't understand why you then insist that that our decisions are determined by that being.

I wouldn’t argue that omniscience alone means said entity causes our decisions. However, if you take that being who perfectly sees an immutable future and combine it with absolute control over the entire creative process, I would argue so. Under this scenario, the only way to alter a future decision would be to alter the beginning of the casual chain (the creative event).

Quote:

If you simply mean to say that the beings accurate foresight is immutable and will come to pass precisely as it is seen in advance, then I agree.

In a reality with an immutable future all choice can only be an illusion. The freedom of our choice becomes moot at this point, because for any given option(s) we can only choose one.

Here's an interesting question along these theological lines for you.

If as you say this god gave us free will, did we have a choice not to accept it?

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

[quote="MockingGods"]
Not only do external stimuli compel (cause) us into the decision making process, these stimuli are also a means by which we form our decisions.

Yes, the decision making process is a bio-environmental process, and we have about the same personal control over our biology as we do our environment, basically none.

Indeed, our decision making process is a reaction to events beyond our control.

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

We most certainly have free will as we learn from our decisions and adjust our future decisions based upon success or failure of past decisions.

You are arguing a contradiction here. Perhaps I don’t understand what you mean by “free” when combining it with “will”. Free tends to suggest our will (decision process) is free of external coercion, when it’s obvious we form these conclusions based upon bio-environmental pressures, which are not within the purview of our personal control.

Free simply means freedom to choose between A, B, C or D. (or however many choices are present) Some people will help at the scene of an accident, some will spectate. Some will chose to fight while others flee. The same options can be presented to two or more people simultaneously and discussion will ensue sometimes with consensus and other times with disagreement. Everyone has a choice or opinion in every matter.

Influences can be and are present from a variety of sources; some of which are within our sphere of control and others from the outside...our personal makeup, past experiences, as well as external stimuli, environment, social traditions, peer pressure, etc. Still, all these influence shape but do not cause or force a decision. We can and do make radical decisions that go against the grain. We have that freedom not to conform. Non-conformity is evidence of free will.

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

If you add a being who foresees all these decisions in advance, I don't understand why you then insist that that our decisions are determined by that being.

I wouldn’t argue that omniscience alone means said entity causes our decisions. However, if you take that being who perfectly sees an immutable future and combine it with absolute control over the entire creative process, I would argue so. Under this scenario, the only way to alter a future decision would be to alter the beginning of the casual chain (the creative event).

We are not forced to conform no matter what chain of influential events takes place. This is our freedom. However, the choice of non-conformity has a negative consequence just as non-conformity to family, society, or law has a negative outcome.

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

If you simply mean to say that the beings accurate foresight is immutable and will come to pass precisely as it is seen in advance, then I agree.

In a reality with an immutable future all choice can only be an illusion. The freedom of our choice becomes moot at this point, because for any given option(s) we can only choose one.

We can choose as to taste or preference endlessly without any relevance to God's immutable plans. What soda or toothpaste I prefer is meaningless in the scope of eternity. What brand car I drive changes nothing. We're like chicks in a hatchery. Some will choose to cluck and some crow (if that choice were possible) The scratching, pecking, shoving, and flapping don't mean anything in the end. Where we stand, squat, lie down, or run is irrelevant to clucking or crowing. The choice that matters is to cluck or to crow. That's oversimplified only to reduce the point. Don't get hung on semantics there.

MockingGods wrote:

Here's an interesting question along these theological lines for you.

If as you say this god gave us free will, did we have a choice not to accept it?

No. We were created without being asked. As created beings of the Living God we are given a choice to return His love or refuse.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Seekah wrote:

Quote:

Even in pre-creation the foresight of future choice is left to the created person. The fact that God created that person knowing what their choice would ultimately be still does not imply that God caused or determined the future choice. What some have implied from this "pre-creation foreknowledge" is that God knowingly created persons who He knew in advance would choose to reject Him and that He would punish those persons eternally. This is seen as cruel, unjust, and unfair.

It seems strange that God would create a person who is destined for hell (forgive the choice of word, but by now I'm sure you grasp what I mean). Why not create only people who will accept him?

Edit: addendum: I would say that it does mean that God caused the future choice. If I were able to create a bomb and I knew in advance that the bomb WOULD kill hundreds of people, then I am responsible for the deaths.

The person who built the bomb and planted it is responsible. Not you.

Your starting to get down to the real question which I bolded. Why? We have part of the puzzle recorded in scripture but we don't have the specific details. We know that there was a rebellion in heaven led by Lucifer whereby he and 1/3 of the angels were cast down. The specifics aren't detailed. However, we have a conversation recorded in Job between Lucifer and God that may be the clue. Based upon satan's accusation against Job, the theory goes something like this:

Satan accuses God that the angels worship Him because they can see Him, watch Him create, are in His presence, blessed by Him and as a result don't have a genuine choice to reject Him or choose another (Lucifer) to worship. Therefore, the angels of heaven are hostages, not able to exercise free will for fear of retaliation. If so, the angels love for God is coerced, not freely given.

So, God creates a new environment and a being with free will. The environment must offer a genuine choice. That requires the illusion of utter freedom so that rejection is a viable choice. Influence is present from both sides drawing the decision; God and His adversary. Man, looking about and seeing no god believes he is free to do as he pleases but runs into laws that contain him. Within this boundary a choice is made: To listen to and believe his intellect and the influences of Lucifer or to listen to his spirit and the influence of his soul's Creator. This is the only choice that matters.

In the end, heaven will be filled for all eternity with beings created by God who CHOOSE to be there by their own free will.


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