You never explained to me how if the future is immutable there could be free will. If your god knows the future absolutely, and that future can not be changed, that is definitionally determinism. You can’t have an absolutely known, immutable future and free will at the same time, it’s contradictory.
1) God's determination or will shall result in the end He has determined; ie. a New Heaven and New Earth (Known as A).
2) Man cannot change, thwart, or prevent A
3) God determines AND foreknows A .
4) God grants limited free will in that the will is free to choose from a limited set of choices. We have free will to choose certain things while at the same time reach barriers that cannot be exceeded.
5) Everything God determines is foreknown. Everything God foreknows is not necessarily determined.
Example
If God determines that the Sun will exist until He implodes it by His will, all of man's efforts to destroy the Sun will fail.
a) God may allow attempts to destroy the Sun.
b) God foreknows all attempts to destroy the Sun
c) Man has free will to attempt to destroy the Sun
d) God's will disallows the Sun's destruction
C: God's foreknowledge of attempts to destroy the Sun did not
cause
man's attempts nor influence/prevent God's determination to implode the sun at His pleasure.
Foreknowledge doesn't force the future to be a certain way, any more than true reports in history force the past to have been a certain way. It simply represents knowledge concerning events without speaking to cause.
Man lives within a limited boundary of free will that appears to mankind as "utter freedom". Man says to himself, "I can do anything I want" which is not exactly true. There are natural and physical laws, legal and societal laws, moral and spiritual laws. Man is permitted to "...do anything I want" withing the framework of laws.
Freedom to choose belief: Man has the ability by free will to
believe
anything he determines to be true. Man's belief can be true or false based upon application of excluded middle or partially true/partially false when EM is itself excluded.
A) Man has been granted the ability to choose belief within the boundaries of free will.
B) God is determined to create a New Heaven and New Earth
C) God has foreknowledge of the end result of A & B.
D) B does not determine A and A is limited in scope.
E) B determines C.
F) C does not determine B.
Omniscience and Free Will are compatible.
Sliced_Bread Newbie First Class
Joined: Jan 08, 2008
Posts: 27
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 9:10 am
Quote:
God's foreknowledge of attempts to destroy the Sun did not cause man's attempts nor influence/prevent God's determination to implode the sun at His pleasure.
If it is in our ability to destroy stars, God's prevention of it is denial of our free will.
_________________ No god is better than no God.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 10:20 am
Sliced_Bread wrote:
Quote:
God's foreknowledge of attempts to destroy the Sun did not cause man's attempts nor influence/prevent God's determination to implode the sun at His pleasure.
If it is in our ability to destroy stars, God's prevention of it is denial of our free will.
Who led you to believe that you have "utter freedom" or right of entitlement to anything?
Sliced_Bread Newbie First Class
Joined: Jan 08, 2008
Posts: 27
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 10:32 am
I don't actually believe in free-will. Using your analogy, you made God into the Interventionist God of the Bible. The very same God that promises his people free-will. If God interferes with human actions not only does it deny free-will, but denies the very "natural laws" that limit us.
Your analogy sucks.
_________________ No god is better than no God.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 10:56 am
How? Why?
I don't see you complaining about gravity's restrictions limiting your ability to jump atop tall buildings. You don't seem to be concerned about your inability to run at the speed of light. You can however choose to go on a diet which could possibly increase your overall potential in attempting to achieve both.
Sliced_Bread Newbie First Class
Joined: Jan 08, 2008
Posts: 27
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 12:08 pm
You're right, those things don't bother me...
For God to know the aftermath of some or every event before it happens, that denies free-will (as well as many other things). You even said that we couldn't destroy the sun (I'll assume you mean ours) so we could destroy any other star we wanted, just not this one. That would deny us, no matter how determined we are to destroy our sun, the ability to do it and...
Quote:
Foreknowledge doesn't force the future to be a certain way.
...forces the future to be a certain way.
We aren't talking about having a "good idea" of a possible out come here. We are talking about God's flawless foresight into the future. Assuming God exists, and he knows what will happen every second of every day, then what would appear to us as free-will or the ability to choose is a sham. It's already mapped out and it wouldn't be his "foreknowledge" that directly burdens us, it would be his determination to act on his foresight.
_________________ No god is better than no God.
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 12:29 pm
Quote:
Foreknowledge doesn't force the future to be a certain way.
Yes it does. If you truly know what's going to happen, it must happen without fail or else you didn't really know it.
Cygnus Resident
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 381
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 12:34 pm
Quote:
4) God grants limited free will in that the will is free to choose from a limited set of choices. We have free will to choose certain things while at the same time reach barriers that cannot be exceeded.
This is completely contrary to the Butterfly effect and chaos theory. You can only have one set events for one outcome. Free will would thwart any kind of fate since god can't interfere with free will, and choices determine the outcome of a set of events.
This topic already exists, so this should be removed.
_________________ "The Jewish-Christian-Muslim is waiting to be free"
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 2:15 pm
Sliced_Bread wrote:
You're right, those things don't bother me...
For God to know the aftermath of some or every event before it happens, that denies free-will (as well as many other things).
How so? If you have specific knowledge of the past, how does that control the outcome of history? Knowledge of a future event is not a determination of the event. Another way to say this is:
A) An event is determined by what is known in advance. >Foreknowledge w/Determination
B) What is known in advance is determined by the event. >Foreknowledge w/out Determination
Sliced_Bread wrote:
You even said that we couldn't destroy the sun (I'll assume you mean ours) so we could destroy any other star we wanted, just not this one. That would deny us, no matter how determined we are to destroy our sun, the ability to do it and...
Quote:
Foreknowledge doesn't force the future to be a certain way.
...forces the future to be a certain way.
Of course, we're supposing a "what if" on the sun. For all I know, God would allow destruction of it. My point was only to demonstrate that God's determined will is immutable. Whatever God determines to come to pass He is capable of making that come to pass. Mankind is unable to halt or alter the plans and purpose of God.
In terms of man, God's will is permissive for the specific purpose of making a choice. We refer to this as free will. It is not intending to mean that man has "free will" and ability to halt or alter God's plans and purpose. This free will is limited to boundaries included in my OP. [/quote]
Sliced_Bread wrote:
We aren't talking about having a "good idea" of a possible out come here. We are talking about God's flawless foresight into the future. Assuming God exists, and he knows what will happen every second of every day, then what would appear to us as free-will or the ability to choose is a sham. It's already mapped out and it wouldn't be his "foreknowledge" that directly burdens us, it would be his determination to act on his foresight.
Not at all. We have the "illusion" of utter freedom. But that isn't so by boundaries of Laws. We don't have the freedom of utter chaos. We live in order of society and law. We are confined by boundaries. Within the boundaries however, we have God's permission and the environment necessary to make a genuine choice between two or more possible choices which are available to us. The only purpose of this entire life is to make a choice. Life begins with eternity. This is just a bus station.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 2:22 pm
kmisho wrote:
Quote:
Foreknowledge doesn't force the future to be a certain way.
Yes it does. If you truly know what's going to happen, it must happen without fail or else you didn't really know it.
Foreknowledge does not CAUSE an event. It is simply the advance knowledge of how an event will unfold. Now, there are many things which God can and has both foreknown and determined. But the environment which He allowed to come into being presented the opportunity of a genuine choice without predetermination.
The purpose is very simple. Love.
If you love a girl, but she does not love you. You cannot tie her up in the basement and tell her, "I'm doing this because I love you". If you truely love her, and she wants to leave? You MUST let her choose. Eternity will be filled with those who want and choose to be there. If one chooses to reject God's offer, He permits it and honors it.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 2:32 pm
Cygnus wrote:
Quote:
4) God grants limited free will in that the will is free to choose from a limited set of choices. We have free will to choose certain things while at the same time reach barriers that cannot be exceeded.
This is completely contrary to the Butterfly effect and chaos theory. You can only have one set events for one outcome. Free will would thwart any kind of fate since god can't interfere with free will, and choices determine the outcome of a set of events.
I never said or inferred that God CANNOT interfere with free will. He will not when it comes to determining The Choice. However, the bible clearly describes a God who interacts with mankind, His people, and brings about His will. The bible even indicates that He has placed Kings in authority. God, as well as satan, most certainly work to influence the decision. God calls men to Himself while satan distracts. However, The Choice is not determined by God or satan, but is left to the man. The choice is genuine and each person is held responsible for that choice. That responsibility is seen in the judgment.
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Wed May 28, 2008 2:47 am
Missionary wrote:
kmisho wrote:
Quote:
Foreknowledge doesn't force the future to be a certain way.
Yes it does. If you truly know what's going to happen, it must happen without fail or else you didn't really know it.
Foreknowledge does not CAUSE an event. It is simply the advance knowledge of how an event will unfold. Now, there are many things which God can and has both foreknown and determined. But the environment which He allowed to come into being presented the opportunity of a genuine choice without predetermination.
The purpose is very simple. Love.
If you love a girl, but she does not love you. You cannot tie her up in the basement and tell her, "I'm doing this because I love you". If you truely love her, and she wants to leave? You MUST let her choose. Eternity will be filled with those who want and choose to be there. If one chooses to reject God's offer, He permits it and honors it.
The issue of cause is irrelevant. If one truly knows the future, everything is required to conform to that knowledge. Anything else is, quite simply and obviously, NOT knowledge of the future.
MrSmith Newbie First Class
Joined: Mar 29, 2008
Posts: 48
Posted:
Wed May 28, 2008 4:28 am
Missionary wrote:
The purpose is very simple. Love.
If you love a girl, but she does not love you. You cannot tie her up in the basement and tell her, "I'm doing this because I love you". If you truely love her, and she wants to leave? You MUST let her choose. Eternity will be filled with those who want and choose to be there. If one chooses to reject God's offer, He permits it and honors it.
Nor would you allow her to starve to death or be raped or be tortured if you loved her and had the power to stop it. Love does not have to be recipricol. A good parent will always love their children even if the love is not returned. A good parent would never prsent their children an option that would lead to their eternal damnation. Free will is the best case possible that God does n ot love us (assuming we have free will and that there is actually a god).
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Wed May 28, 2008 5:05 am
kmisho wrote:
Missionary wrote:
kmisho wrote:
Quote:
Foreknowledge doesn't force the future to be a certain way.
Yes it does. If you truly know what's going to happen, it must happen without fail or else you didn't really know it.
Foreknowledge does not CAUSE an event. It is simply the advance knowledge of how an event will unfold. Now, there are many things which God can and has both foreknown and determined. But the environment which He allowed to come into being presented the opportunity of a genuine choice without predetermination.
The purpose is very simple. Love.
If you love a girl, but she does not love you. You cannot tie her up in the basement and tell her, "I'm doing this because I love you". If you truely love her, and she wants to leave? You MUST let her choose. Eternity will be filled with those who want and choose to be there. If one chooses to reject God's offer, He permits it and honors it.
The issue of cause is irrelevant. If one truly knows the future, everything is required to conform to that knowledge. Anything else is, quite simply and obviously, NOT knowledge of the future.
Cause is the issue. You're asserting that the advance pre-determination of God CAUSES the event of man's choosing and therefore God foreknows. You even say, "everything is required to conform to that knowledge".
I'm suggesting that the knowledge conforms in advance to the event taking place in the future, not the other way around. God simply knows correctly in advance.
If there is a light switch that only turns on or off.
It is resting in the off position.
I enter the room and turn it on.
God foreknew the event but did not CAUSE me to turn it on. I could just have easily turned around and decided NOT to turn the light on and exited the room. If I had of done that? Then God's foreknowledge would have been that I exited without turning on the light.
Either way God is not the cause of my decision. I have free will to enter/exit and turn on/off. The 2 choices are mine.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Wed May 28, 2008 5:19 am
MrSmith wrote:
Missionary wrote:
The purpose is very simple. Love.
If you love a girl, but she does not love you. You cannot tie her up in the basement and tell her, "I'm doing this because I love you". If you truely love her, and she wants to leave? You MUST let her choose. Eternity will be filled with those who want and choose to be there. If one chooses to reject God's offer, He permits it and honors it.
Nor would you allow her to starve to death or be raped or be tortured if you loved her and had the power to stop it. Love does not have to be recipricol. A good parent will always love their children even if the love is not returned. A good parent would never prsent their children an option that would lead to their eternal damnation. Free will is the best case possible that God does n ot love us (assuming we have free will and that there is actually a god).
I'm suggesting this is a humanist view, not a biblical view. It's based upon the assumption that 1) we're "all" God's children and 2) that suffering on earth is a result of God's cruelty or lack of compassion. Both 1 and 2 are false assumptions.
1) Individuals are "adopted" as God's children when we respond to His call.
2) Suffering is a result of sin and it's effects upon mankind. It is illustrative in part of the eternal suffering that will result in denying God's work to adopt us. We are currently living under slavery to sin in the orphanage of hate. The "god of this world" according to the bible is Satan. He is the current master of mankind. God offers "salvation" from this condition.
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