Does god actually want us to believe in Her?

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 19, 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Iowa

Hello. As a new atheist, I am still troubled a bit by the fear of “eternal damnation” but I think I have constructed at least a somewhat logically sound argument that has put some of my fears to rest. I wanted to present it here for review and criticism because I feel that it may bring about yet another illogical aspect of Christianity and want to present it in some Christian forums, as well as on other atheist forums in hopes of calming other new atheists who fear the “wrath of god”.

I’m not a philosopher by any means, and this probably has all kinds of problems, but that’s why I’m here, to find and fix those problems.

Basically it starts with the premise that god is all and completely rational and logical. If this premise fails then I think the rest of the argument will fail, but I don’t think a Christian will deny the fact that god is all rational (He seems to be all everything else).

Here is the basic flow of the argument:
As an atheist I do not believe in god. I do not believe in god because it is not logically possible (for me at least) to conclude god’s existence through reason, empirical evidence, etc… If I can not reasonably conclude that god exists then it would be unreasonable for me to believe in a god. And likewise if this belief is irrational, then surely it would be irrational (for god) to impose an irrational belief on me, and more so, punish me for all eternity for this lack of belief. Thus it is either the case that god is not completely rational and logical (in which case we have a very chaotic and unpredictable deity!) or he simply doesn’t care if we believe in him or not.

This isn’t necessarily part of the core argument, but it seems that for a Christian to believe in god, they need to have/know something that I do not have/know. Why should I be punished for all eternity for a simple lack of this certain something? This seems to me to be terribly immoral.

One objection I do anticipate is that in the society in which we live, ignorance of the law does not point to innocence if one violates a law of which he is not aware. We still punish people for crimes even if they didn’t know they’re crimes.
For one thing, we have law books that we can clearly read and identify the laws of a society that were written by actual verifiable people instead of going to a book of bronze age myth that is so self contradictory that well over 1,000 Christian denominations bicker and disagree on what the true meaning of the book is.

Again, this is my first crack at an argument that I formed on my own and welcome any and all criticism. . . just try to keep it positive!

THANKS!

Newbie First Class Joined: May 03, 2008 Posts: 31

krems you have a very good argument there, I used to be scared from time to time when I was questioning a believe that my parents impose on me , but the more I find smart arguments, the more I want to talk about religion to anybody. Keep up the reasoning coming good job!!!

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:58 am

Hey, welcome to the forums and to the freethinking community!

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with your argument except maybe the first if- statement. If you can't do it and others can, however, that's just how god made you. So it's still her fault Twisted Evil

. Beyond that, their arguments amount to accusation and character assassination. Most decent people won't go that far, though.

I make basically the same argument, though in more rhetorical terms. I say that a God that punishes me for not believing in him is a God not worthy of my worship. Thinking about that, it IS a little ballsy, but it is how I feel.

The biggest difficulty is the differing doctrine- God isn't necessarily reasonable, but he defines reason as how it should be. If that doesn't make sense replace reason with moral- genocide was fine for him, therefore it's moral. So just because something is irrational to US doesn't mean it is to her. You see where I'm going with this? Similar to a moving goalpost.

Anyway, as far as your argument, the devil is in the details. People that are going to try to argue with you will most likely say either, "Yes, you're going to hell because you don't believe." or "You will be judged according to the content of your heart." There are some other beliefs, some will even allow those "innocent of belief" ie, those who have never had access to the gospel, to enter heaven according to the content of their heart. I'm speaking very broadly of course, but these seem to be the predominant themes.

The usual counter (I wouldn't say argument) is a tactic made famous by Ken Ham and other creationists- sort of a bait and switch. They'll ignore the argument that you present and completely change the subject, then twist your words to make it seem like you already said it. It's an art form.

To address the fear- personally, for me, death will really suck. Not being. That's worse than anything I can imagine. I really just love existing- even the shitty times. When I was at my lowest, I considered and discarded suicide- only because of my atheism. If I had a heaven to look forward to, I probably wouldn't be typing. So the way I look at it, even if I'm wrong and I end up in Hell/Hades/Beer Volcano, I continue existing. So, for me, I'm already prepared for the worst. If something else happens, eternal damnation would be preferable. Hopefully though I get accepted into Val Halla and get to drink, fight and fornicate for all eternity! But I'm not betting on it.

And if you're wondering, I also try to avoid sleeping. I hate it! Waste of precious time...

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 370

Quote:

There are some other beliefs, some will even allow those "innocent of belief" ie, those who have never had access to the gospel, to enter heaven according to the content of their heart.

I wonder if there are any religions that say you get into heaven based on the content of your heart regardless if you choose to believe in any god, even if its their own.

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 19, 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Iowa

Well, it looks like I might have a decent argument here, so maybe I'll take it to the front lines, lol.

Thanks to all who responded!

BTW, the group that I usually debate is a facebook group called "The Truth About the Church of Christ". They are your stereotypical fundies. Young earth creationist, anti-evolution, 6 day creation christians. They can be quite a tough bunch however, and I think I'm the only non-believer in the group. If any of you feel inclined to help out for the cause of reason and science, I'd really appreciate it!

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:31 am

Let us know how it goes!

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

Kgrems, I appreciate your fear of divine retribution. Most of us have been there I'm certain. Think of it this way: the notion that an individual could be wise and powerful enough to create us as well as the entire universe, yet so petty and hate filled as to condemn an individual to an eternity of suffering simply for coming to the sincere conclusion (whether right or wrong) that there is no god seems to me to be contradictory. Near the end of my time as a Christian, I used to argue that a belief in hell was blasphemous and insulting to our “all loving god”. Also, if god is willing to condemn you to hell for following you conscience, then odds are it could find thousands of tiny imperfections in your character that it would use to justify your eternal damnation.
Ultimately, hell is a notion designed to coerce good people into doing what they are told. Just be as good a person as you can be, and if there is a god then I’m sure it will understand.

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 370

Quote:

Also, if god is willing to condemn you to hell for following you conscience, then odds are it could find thousands of tiny imperfections in your character that it would use to justify your eternal damnation.

Yeah, I was watching some video from VenomfangX (what a moron) about him saying that god doesn't need to care for starving sinful children in Africa, assuming right away that they did some horrible sin to deserve their suffering. He goes on to say that 'God doesn't owe us anything' because we are sinful, which makes me think "If god created us, he created our natures, which tend to lean toward imperfection, then how does he get angry at us for this reason? Didn't he expect that when he made us that way?"

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:01 am

kgrems wrote:

Well, it looks like I might have a decent argument here, so maybe I'll take it to the front lines, lol.

Thanks to all who responded!

BTW, the group that I usually debate is a facebook group called "The Truth About the Church of Christ". They are your stereotypical fundies. Young earth creationist, anti-evolution, 6 day creation christians. They can be quite a tough bunch however, and I think I'm the only non-believer in the group. If any of you feel inclined to help out for the cause of reason and science, I'd really appreciate it!

Oh how juicy! I hate that church. My wife used to go there and I had to go to a couple of the sermons and... wow! mind blowingly asenine. Also my best friend from high scholl was of that church and he bought it hook line and sinker. Unfortunately I suspect that he had some gay or at least sinful tendencies. And I got to watch him tear into himself like a woven barbed wire rope being twisted for 5 years.

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 370

Why are creationists against evolution? The theory only explains that animals can evolve, not where they all came from. Creationists attack evolution without knowing what it is.

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 19, 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Iowa

MrSmith wrote:

Kgrems, I appreciate your fear of divine retribution. Most of us have been there I'm certain. Think of it this way: the notion that an individual could be wise and powerful enough to create us as well as the entire universe, yet so petty and hate filled as to condemn an individual to an eternity of suffering simply for coming to the sincere conclusion (whether right or wrong) that there is no god seems to me to be contradictory. Near the end of my time as a Christian, I used to argue that a belief in hell was blasphemous and insulting to our “all loving god”. Also, if god is willing to condemn you to hell for following you conscience, then odds are it could find thousands of tiny imperfections in your character that it would use to justify your eternal damnation.
Ultimately, hell is a notion designed to coerce good people into doing what they are told. Just be as good a person as you can be, and if there is a god then I’m sure it will understand.

Thank you for the insight as this is something I still struggle with a bit. It's amazing how fear gets in the way of clear and rational thinking sometimes.

Cygnus wrote:

Oh how juicy! I hate that church. My wife used to go there and I had to go to a couple of the sermons and... wow! mind blowingly asenine. Also my best friend from high scholl was of that church and he bought it hook line and sinker. Unfortunately I suspect that he had some gay or at least sinful tendencies. And I got to watch him tear into himself like a woven barbed wire rope being twisted for 5 years.

I actually just left that facebook group. When I brought up the Bible verse about stoning children to death for disobeying their parents, they actually tried to defend the act! They made comments like "Well what would YOU do with a disobedient child like that?" and "If you say that the act is morally wrong, where do you get your morals from?" Clearly they were trying to change the subject entirely. Bottom line is that I just got a little bit disturbed when they were actually defending this kind of barbaric act as demonstrated in the Bible and didn't want to associate with them anymore...

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:09 pm

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

There are some other beliefs, some will even allow those "innocent of belief" ie, those who have never had access to the gospel, to enter heaven according to the content of their heart.

I wonder if there are any religions that say you get into heaven based on the content of your heart regardless if you choose to believe in any god, even if its their own.

Yes there are many people who belong to religions or none who hold your view.

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:51 am

Aww, you quit?!? I was about to join the fray.

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 370

ShaSha wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

There are some other beliefs, some will even allow those "innocent of belief" ie, those who have never had access to the gospel, to enter heaven according to the content of their heart.

I wonder if there are any religions that say you get into heaven based on the content of your heart regardless if you choose to believe in any god, even if its their own.

Yes there are many people who belong to religions or none who hold your view.

It isn't exactly my view; I just wish all religions were that way.

To all the theists who say 'religion is necessary for morality', I say they're wrong. Kids can be taught morality in non religious environments. Therefore, religions who believe in a god that rewards good despite the person's beliefs make more sense to me.

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 2:54 pm

Cygnus wrote:

ShaSha wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

There are some other beliefs, some will even allow those "innocent of belief" ie, those who have never had access to the gospel, to enter heaven according to the content of their heart.

I wonder if there are any religions that say you get into heaven based on the content of your heart regardless if you choose to believe in any god, even if its their own.

Yes there are many people who belong to religions or none who hold your view.

It isn't exactly my view; I just wish all religions were that way.

To all the theists who say 'religion is necessary for morality', I say they're wrong. Kids can be taught morality in non religious environments. Therefore, religions who believe in a god that rewards good despite the person's beliefs make more sense to me.

I believe it will be most of the religions of the future that see god as a god of love such as you describe. More and more subscribe to that now.


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