BLACKS AND RELIGION?

Newbie Joined: May 18, 2008 Posts: 22

Ralphellectual wrote:

I have never heard of a "postmodern humanist" nor any of these varieties of atheists cited. Something tells me you are making this all up.

What is implied in the statement "theories about ideology and the unconscious undermine strict rationalist approaches to the world"? Do theories about ideology undermine rationalist philosophy, or does the reality of ideology undermine rationality in the real world? These are not the same claims.

I have also never heard of an "ironic rationalist". Sounds pretty stupid.

But this is hilarious:

"... our shared commitment to civil liberties, social justice, and economic equality."

Here I take it you are not being ironic. Which is all the funnier. I have never seen in all my adult life any of this shared commitment. "Social justice, and economic equality"? Do you even know where you are? Are you even remotely in touch with reality? And when you engage people in this group, do you even have a clue whom you're talking to?

mlackey wrote:

...There are many varieties of atheism--Marxist atheists who focus on the role the God-concept plays in pacifying the masses, rationalist atheists who focus on the value of science and reason in the formation of a rationalist society, postmodernist atheists who argue that humans rather than God originate language and meaning, feminist atheists who examine how the God-concept has functioned to institute patriarchal models of dominance, postcolonial atheists who examine the role religion has played in justifying imperialism, black atheists who expose the way "God and the word of God have been used to perpetuate the wicked idea of human inferiority" (J. Saunders Redding), and others.

The problem with all these splinter groups is that we end up attacking each other. For years now I have been trying to argue that most of us atheists share more similarities than differences.

In fact, my own battle with Free Inquiry and Center for Inquiry has revolved around this very issue. I used to be a strong supporter of Free Inquiry, even though I have reservations about what I consider their excessive focus on science and reason.

As a postmodern humanist, I strongly support science and reason, but I also believe that theories about ideology and the unconscious undermine strict rationalist approaches to the world. One could say that postmodern humanists are ironic rationalists. They reverence reason, but they recognize its serious limitations and understand that it is oftentimes compromised by the realities of the unconscious and ideology.

Despite my reservations about the Enlightenment rationalist approach to the world, I strongly support most of the objectives and views of Enlightenment rationalists. Unfortunately, Free Inquiry writers do not approve of my brand of atheism/humanism, so they have attacked me.

What we need is to bring all of the various groups of atheists together into a productive, unifying dialogue, one that will underscore our common vision of as well as our shared commitment to civil liberties, social justice, and economic equality. . . .

You are part of the problem, and consequently, you will never be part of the solution to anything. Crawl into your metaphysical hole, where no new ideas can touch you. You are worse than most dogmatic believers---

Newbie Joined: May 18, 2008 Posts: 22

I have tried to maintain a civil tone throughout, but Ralphellectual simply refuses to act as a responsible contributor to this site. I want to briefly indicate how misguided he is. Here's what he said about Richard Wright a few messages ago: "I vaguely recall that maybe Wright was not so enamored of Presence Africaine?" Now here's what Wright said in his 1957 book "White Man, Listen!": "The conference of black artists and writers recently concluded in Paris by Prsence Africaine is a vivid example of this stocktaking on the part of the elite of the black world. It is a recoil and withdrawal prompted by psychological necessity, but it is far from being a negative gesture. It is a regrouping of psychological forces for constructive action" (694-5). Ralphellectual got it wrong. He based his claim on some vague memory, and he got the idea wrong. When I read his message a few days ago, I didn't reply by saying that Wright was invited to write articles for Presence Africaine, I didn't mention that George Padmore's wife (George Padmore was a major figure of the Presence Africaine group) was the one who first encouraged Wright to go to the Gold Coast (Ghana), which resulted in his book, "Black Power." In the name of civility, I thought it best not to mention the fact that Ralphellectual, in making his comment, exposed how little he knows about Wright--anybody familiar with Wright's biography and corpus would not have made this kind of mistake. I didn't mention these things, because I was trying to be polite and politic.

But he, who discloses more ignorance than knowledge with each message he posts, attacks me for making up the varieties of atheism. And you know, he's right about this: I am in the process of clearly formulating the varieties of atheism. But here's what interesting. PZ Meyers, one of my colleagues, is well known for his work as a prominent scientific atheist. PZ and I are currently working on bringing together atheists of all stripes in order to clarify our similarities and disagreements--we are hoping to bring together academic atheists from all over the world to a conference in the spring of 2010. And if you do a search on varieties of atheism and PZ Meyers, you will find that I have already delivered a lecture on this topic, and that the audience was extremely receptive to the distinctions I was making. That is why PZ has posted my lecture on so many of his sites.

What are my points? I have two. First, Ralphellectual, you are a fraud, and I can prove it. Unlike you, I can provide evidence to justify the claims I make. I can point to texts to illustrate my claims and I can define my terms. You cannot or will not. Whatever the case may be, you are exposed. And I can assure you, readers of these messages know what's going on. Second, I strongly recommend that we reject the tone of Ralphellectual's messages. He is trying to divide us. Everbleed is trying to initiate a project that will bring us together. Like Richard Wright, Everbleed has a vision, one that regroups psychological forces for constructive action. This I take to be a useful guiding principle.

All Best,
michael

Newbie Joined: May 18, 2008 Posts: 22

One last comment: Tim Madigan published an article title "Postmodern humanism" in "Free Inquiry" a number of years ago, and there is an extensive literature out there on postmodern humanism. Again, you are wrong. You know, Ralphellectual, you almost make me want to believe in truth again. Whatever you say must be wrong. Therefore, you could almost be considered the basis for determining truth.

Newbie First Class Joined: Apr 26, 2008 Posts: 44

Damn, I come home for lunch break and look what good times I have missed. And now I have to go back and don't have time to really write... AND I REALLY WANT TO WRITE.

But quickly. mlackey... achoo made one small error. Ralph and I are not twins separated at birth. You and I are!

Not to be too "spiritual" about this, but I think mlackey and I running into each other here is "destiny". Kmisho says he doesn't believe in Dawkins memes. Ha, he is watching one form. He just doesn't know it. Yet.

Crap, I am already late and the boss is waiting. I couldn't even read your last posts m. Please sit tight. Let me get home. I will be right back at you.

Ignore Ralph. He ignores very well, so give what ya get.

Hugs,
Bleed

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:16 am

Have you guys seen this thread? I talked about THIS thread over THERE, but given everbleed's last I'm now going to post THAT thread over HERE.

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-870-days0-orderasc-0.html

Meet WrathJW, writer,boxer, atheist and first-order blogger.

And, no, I don't buy into memes as anything more than metaphor...at least for now.

By the way, everbleed, this formulation of IG went through a very rough spot recently and threatened to expire. But I and some others have been holding down the fort for quite some time and I think we are beginning to see a significant resurgence.

Just Arrived Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 8

Wow! Mr. Everbleed! I just read your response to Goat420 on your Richard Dawkins Assassination Video topic. You sure brought that topic to a screeching stop. I thought you were harsh at first and then I went into Goat420’s links and had to agree with you.

This topic is a wonderful and very interesting discussion. I am so busy trying to digest it all, I feel overwhelmed. I want to respond but I am so busy reading stuff you all have recommended I haven’t had the time yet. Anyway, you and Mr. mlackey and Mr. Kmisho are doing a great job and I don’t know that my 2 cents could add to the discussion.

But I wanted you all to know I am enjoying this very much. Please don’t stop. Except for Mr. Ralphellectual who doesn’t seem to be adding much. Although I think he inspires Mr. Everbleed to write funny stuff. “Pompous blowhard.” I laughed, I cried.

Newbie First Class Joined: Apr 26, 2008 Posts: 44

mlackey...
I sent you a Private Message, if you didn't know. You should see the notice just above the forum frame.

Kmisho...

Maybe "marketing" isn't the best word but it is the only one I can think of that describes what I have felt (for many, many years) has been missing from the "movement/s". I wish I could write a treatise on the idea of marketing free thought but here is not the place. I will say that I think "we" are running out of time. And if we don't start feeding the rational meme, we may watch a teetering world lose its balance and fall.

About two and a half decades ago I went to a Free Inquiry Conference in SF. My wife and I and a dear friend were young and anxious to meet fellow free thinkers. What we found was a bunch of old white men and some lesbians and prostitutes from a group I recall was called Coyote. Now, yes, everyone there was a free thinker, and by everyone I mean there may have been 50-60 people. Let's put it this way. All I remember are the lesbians and prostitutes being there because no one else would allow them to distribute literature and participate. We left terribly disappointed. Unimpressed. Uninspired. Unrequited. And here we are a quarter century hence and we are governed by the Southern Baptist Convention and living in a country that has actually become one of the most religious on the planet. I believe we did a really crappy job of marketing. I think achoo alluded to one of the main reasons why.

I think effective marketing of free thought is THE SINGLE BIGGEST ISSUE FACING US! The debate about the word doesn't change the fact that most people view atheists in a poor light. Atheism needs a really good publicist.

All the really smart people, all the really smart dialog, all the really deep thinking isn't what is going to make free thought popular. Sure, the people, the dialog and the thinking are the foundations of the movement, but they have not, and are not, and will not accomplish the task. It is time to consider something more radical. And however radical it is it will absolutely have to be synergistic and inclusive of all free thinkers regardless of what particular flavor of free thought they ascribe to. I also think the movement needs to overtly distance itself from the confrontational Goat420's of the world if we are ever going to gain even a modicum of respect from the faithful.

kmisho said I don't take memes seriously except as a shorthand way of describing certain mental phenomena. Dawkins is better when he sticks to evolution.

"Certain mental phenomena" is much harder to say, to remember and to relay to others. Memes is good marketing. Memes make sense, that is why the "meme" meme has prospered. I happen to think memes do make sense and for good reason. I have seen them born. I have seen them multiply. I have seen them work. I wonder how else you would explain the fact that a meme could be forming right here and there is no biology involved whatsoever. TIG is the uterus. Cynus is the egg. And we are the sperm. Maybe if we are lucky a bunch of we little wigglers will fertilize the egg here and we will have a multiple birth. Wouldn't it be interesting if other sperm arrived and picked up on the meme. If they tell their friends, does the new meme exist or is it just "certain mental phenomena".

My last comment on memes. This may sound trite, but I am convinced memes have been driving human evolution for a few thousand years. I think (like Leonard Shlain) that females drove evolution until not long ago when I believe memes took over. I think you, and I, and everyone reading this post are descendants of the people who bought the dominant meme of their time and got to reproduce. The free thinking meme still survives because lots of our ancestors simply pretended to go along with the bullshit in order to survive. The great mass of us are the descendants of the faithful. The believers. The conformers. The sheep.

The resitors, the rebels and the opposition got burned, tortured, exiled, shunned and ridiculed. They just didn't have the biological opportunity to reproduce as often. Look at my favorite Sir Isaac. He kept his views on religion a secret for his 84 years, exposing the truth only on his deathbed. And yet he wrote over 1.2 MILLION words on the bible and may in fact be the most religious man who ever lived. Had dear Mr. Newton opened his mouth just once, he would likely be a footnote in history. Edmund Halley could never have published Principia had Newton's true beliefs been known. And I dare anyone here (even Ralphie) to argue that one with me.

Now I would like very much to address mlackeys most excellent posts. The first thing I want to tell him is how bloody much I enjoyed them. You see, I raised these very issues years ago with Free Inquiry. I raised the issues under different aliases with the Brights and a number of other "free thought" sites. And boy did I get shot down in flames. That is why I said I would tell you all my wacky plan for the black man to enact the freethought revolution if I "survive the lynching". I even had my snappy comeback for when it happened.

"I am well hung."

But Kmisho, achoo and mlackey ruined my opportunity to enjoy that double entandre. I couldn't be happier.

Free thought needs a really good book. mlackey is positively correct. Free thought also needs some good, big budget, CGI loaded movies. Free thought needs a great video game, a rock band, a comedy act, its own holiday, rituals, support groups and all the rest of the trappings of...

YES, (say it isn't so Everbleed)...

RELIGION!!!

Free thought needs its own Emperor Constantine. Only now, we need a bunch of them because we don't have the luxury of telling people how to believe and stabbing them with a short sword if they don't follow the dictum.

Free thought needs marketing.

Getting too long now. Boring our casual viewers I am sure. More later. If I survive the lynching.

Newbie First Class Joined: Apr 26, 2008 Posts: 44

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, please understand the following is a spontaneous exhalation of an idea festering in my head for ages and written at 4:00AM after waking up from a dream staring WrathJW. Only here and now have I dared even suggest this and then with the proviso that the idea is only minimally formed and articulated herein. I have posted this on both relevant threads on TIG.

How black Americans can save the Earth.

Create an organization. Pick a name for the organization that is very easy to remember and defines who you are, what you do and your intentions. Something like: BALLSE Black Americans Loving Life & Saving Earth (Roll eyeballs and spit expletives here.) First, make a website. A really classy, deep, comprehensive website.

Write a manifesto. State your love of Earth and all peoples on Her, and the Love and Joy you feel for Life and Humanity and the desire to have it continue. State how you can help save the Earth. Reject faith of every stripe and declare the myth based religions of your former masters as the catalyst and perpetuator of enslavement of ALL men and women. Declare your confidence in the ideals of love, life and mankind and the pursuit of truth through reason and science.

Recruit, indoctrinate and mentor every black educator, artist, musician, talk show host, author, athlete, politician, movie director, rapper, dancer, animator, engineer, entrepreneur, manufacturer, designer, architect and actor you can find. State that membership is open to all people. State that you are simply a group of black Americans who have initiated and lead a movement which is for everyone who thinks, loves life and loves Earth. Reject faith and its leaders, and that means rejecting Jesse, Al, Wright and Louis and all who would continue the enslavement of all men and women with the incoherent adherence to irrational ideas and dogmas.

Write THE book. Then write a bunch more. Script the movie. Make the movie. Get big stars. Write songs. Paint pictures. Do the talk show circuits. Protest and draw attention to the organization whenever faith and the faithful attack reason. Do interviews after games, award shows and performances and declare you are BALLSE. Do concerts. Dance dances. Host conventions and make them HOT. Buy billboards. Buy advertising. Raise money… lots of it. Spend it. Love each other. Support each other. Help each other. Stop bickering. Stop being sensitive, paranoid and angry. Control testosterone. Think big. Think big picture. Think about kids and the kids you want your kids to marry. Work to save their world. Reach out to the underprivileged, and the disenfranchised. Give them the means to educate themselves and be educated. Help them grow. Convert Oprah. Convert Obama.

Identify and recruit rational men and women of any color to run for any and all political and community offices. Do what the Christian right has been doing for years. Infiltrate the political process but do it openly and unashamedly. Recruit, endorse and support all people of any color who believe in and live the manifesto. Embrace the free thought movement and all of its flavors and leaders except those who endorse militant, divisive attitudes and means. Embrace science and education. Sponsor scholarships. Build schools. Build universities. Build hospitals.

Create centers to replace the vital mechanisms and functions of society currently served by churches. Have places to marry. Have places to learn. Have places to congregate. Create rituals to replace the religious rituals. Have places to disseminate knowledge.

Demand equal treatment and respect. Speak out against all faith based initiatives and movements without alienation or meanness. Do good things and give credit to good people. Help sway the undecided and make them know they are welcome and respected.

Americans of African descent have a unique opportunity to do something special. America and the world are ripe and receptive to new ideas. People everywhere are worried. They are looking for something to cling to. How about each other? But the very people who have the best chance of really making a difference are so busy wrangling with each other they are allowing the worst of us to prevail and to dominate us all.

The Earth is in trouble. If there is anyone out there who thinks we are not just a few years from big trouble, you are living in a hole. If there is anyone out there who does not believe that another major terrorist attack on the US, or an oil embargo, or a food shortage could trigger a global collapse, then they are ignoring history and modern reality.

The world is linked by the Internet. Memes can spread quickly. Change can happen but it will not, and can not be based on faith. Faith must be replaced with confidence. Faith must be replaced with love. Not biblical love. Real love. Like the ideal of Christ but without the most insidious evil on Earth… Priests, pastors, reverends and faith healers.

We might be the only intelligent life we will ever know. I don’t think life capable of comprehending itself is common in the Universe. We have an obligation to save ourselves. We have an obligation to know the Universe. WE might be God.

If man needs a God then instead of making the arrogant assumption that we know what God is and what it wants, we should instead embrace the idea that The Search for God is God.

I am not talented enough to articulate myself like mlackey and WrathJW, but I do believe we free thinking people really need to get our act together and unify. I love all men. I love life. I love living. I love my kid. I love your kids. I love you. Think.

The rope is around my neck and I am standing on the scaffold. I am ready.

P.s. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13983 This is a link to a new article on religion and evolution.

Just Arrived Joined: Jun 01, 2008 Posts: 3

Greetings all! I am posting my first reply to this thread after reading the 8 pages of comments. Therefore, I plan to get some "shuteye" before adding anything of consequence. Suffice to say that I identify with the lucid postings of Everbleed, achoo, Mlackey and Kmisho. Ralph, unfortuantly, left me cold. I shall continue after some sleep and look forward to the next posts.

Best wishes,
65Roses

Newbie First Class Joined: Apr 26, 2008 Posts: 44

Kmisho,

I screwed up in my "marketing" post and inadvertently posted Ralphs quote with yours. It made it look like you made both statements. My apologies to you Sir.

65 Roses, Thank You for your encouragement. You and achoo make clear that this record setting thread is too much. Only the most curious of us will plow through this tome, and anyone "dropping in" is bound to get confused if not discouraged.

Additionally, I have made direct contact with mlackey, which has made the time and caloric burn of my participation in this topic the most productive time and burn of my entire life. As the TV commercial for a credit card (of all things) says, "Priceless".

So, considering that we seem to have "lost" Ralph and possibly Kmisho, Cygnus, and everyone else but myself, mlackey, achoo and now 65Roses, maybe we ought to make a new topic or even topics to explore the issues raised herein. Kmisho's prediction has come to pass.

I want to add one comment to my post on "BALLSE". The first line of the charter statement of the organization would include a statement to the idea of disbanding BALLSE at the earliest opportunity. Race should mean nothing. Black or Pink shouldn't matter when it comes to saving EVERYBODY's Earth. It only matters now while it still matters. BALLSE's goal would be to make it not matter any more. Black Americans just happen to be in a particularly fortuitous position now to accomplish the goal. That is my thesis.

How about the few of us remaining here nominate issues raised here for one or more topics. We can branch out. I think if we quoted various portions of posts to start the new topics, we could make it easy for everyone to "catch up" with the program.

Any thoughts?

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 388

I think BALLSE is a great idea.

Freethought does need marketing, That doesn't mean that we need the 'bandwagon' aproach. all we have to do is make freethought look acceptable, doable, and make it something that people want to do. Marketing would make freethought more appealing to people and it would definately help more people to actually consider it. What we should watch out for is a backlash from the religious.

Freethought needs more than marketing. The freethought community lacks an effective infrastructure to support those new members who are just now comming in. BALLSE I think would really help more black freethinkers to come out of the closet.

I think a new discussion needs to be established for the idea of marketing freethought, or BALLSE, or both. Both are certainly good ideas.

Newbie First Class Joined: Apr 26, 2008 Posts: 44

Thank you Cygnus. I am surprised you liked the name BALLSE. I truly was waiting to be ridiculed. (But of course you are the first responder.) Remember the name was just a dreamed up one (literally) that I thought many people might laugh at. I only put it in because I couldn't think of another at 4:30AM. But it does "stick" to you and no matter how many times I have recited it to myself I have failed to find fault with its message. Plus the slang connotation might be perceived by our popular culture as kind of cool and "in your face" which is kind of cool these days too.

As to the "religious backlash, actually the it might be exactly what you do want. Free publicity. Worth millions. Then if you have infrastructure and can handle the deluge of Google hits that occur when the Today show carries a story about you...

You are good to go. On fire. Building the meme. Recruiting like crazy.

Let the faithful complain. At some point you might even consider encouraging it. But you probably wouldn't have to.

Anyway, one of the foundations of my blacks save the Earth thesis is that it is way un-cool to say anything bad about Americans who happen to be black in the America of 2008. A group of talented, intelligent and creative men who happen to be black (like our WrathJW and mlackey) would be orders of magnitude more effect than ANY group of Americans who happen to be white, brown or yellow. And I would ask anyone reading this who also watches TV and reads periodicals to disagree.

Message, money, marketing. In this particular case the money part wouldn't be nearly as big a hurdle. The marketing could be largely free.

Resident Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 388

The reason I like the name BALLSE is because, as you say, it does stick with you. It is a little humorous and will have some people chuckling. However, that could be an effective marketing strategy. Look at Geico or anyone who makes clever, funny commercials. The humor would make people a little more receptive to the message. The atheist movement doesn't have to use cold, hard logic all the time in my opinion to win converts.

As for the religious backlash, it could play out as you say, or it will play out like the conservative/religious backlash after the 60's that started the Reagan era.

Just Arrived Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 8

Mr. Cygnus is on to something. But he didn’t go far enough. There would be a huge backlash against BALLSE but the worst backlash would come from the black church with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakan leading the charge.

I thought about BALLSE all day yesterday and I LIKE IT a lot.

But BALLSE could never happen. It’s too bad.

I checked out Mr. WrathJW’s blogs and stuff and Mr. Everbleed is right about him too. Mr. WrathJW is a work of art, a surreal one. He sure writes compellingly. I agree he is very “marketable”. But I notice Mr. WrathJW has not responded to BALLSE or Mr. Everbleed and probably won’t. Mr. WrathJW may be Afro centric. The moment “Americans who happen to be black” hear that BALLSE was the idea of an “American who happens to be white” it will fall stillborn. NIH.

It’s weird to come into this forum and read such interesting things. And there are only 5 or 6 of us participating. I never expected this.

But it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if Mr. mlackey and Mr. Everbleed faded away from here as the reality hits them. Maybe Mr. Ralphellectual was right even if he was wrong. We’re doomed.

It’s too bad.

Newbie Joined: May 18, 2008 Posts: 22

Achoo, I don't entirely agree with your assessment, and here's why. You are right that I will probably be disengaging from this forum shortly, but it is not because of a lack of interest. I have deadlines for two articles, and I am working on my next book, which is due in August of 2009. This might seem like a long time away, but given all the research I have to do, this is totally normal. As for organizing our forces, people need to do this within their respective field of expertise. As a professor, I am working with a number of prominent freethinking professors all over the country to organize our forces. In fact, I have been applying for grants to get money to host a major conference for freethinkers in the humanities, sciences, and social sciences to get together to clarify our similarities and differences.

As for Everbleed's Ballse idea, I both agree and disagree. In my book, I argue that the reason why we should take African American atheists seriously is that they have, better than any other group of freethinkers, exposed the way the God-concept functions to justify abusing and violating a wide variety of people. Of course, I take this idea from Richard Wright, who claims in "White Man, Listen!": "The voice of the American Negro is rapidly becoming the most representative voice of America and of oppressed people anywhere in the world today." Wright argues that African Americans exposed the structures of oppression more clearly than anyone else, because they were the victims of such oppression for so long. Consequently, their intellectual tradition has been one of the most insightful for exposing oppression at "lower frequencies," as Ralph Ellison claims in the closing lines of "Invisible Man." In other words, the African American voice is "the most representative voice of America" because it helps expose the structures that dominant communities use to violate gays, lesbians, women, atheists, agnostics, and other groups. Now where is my objection to Everbleed's idea? The way he phrases the matter, it sounds like we would be exploiting the black community for a political agenda, and any political movement that is based on exploiting one particular group for a particular gain could and probably will create much dissension and resistance. I know that Everbleed does not have bad intentions, but the way the message reads, I could imagine that it would upset and offend quite a few. Everbleed, this is not intended to be an attack on your idea--I have too much respect for you and your agenda to launch such an attack. It is just a question of framing the idea. That's my view, at least.

Talk to you all later,
michael


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