David and the census

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 515

Yeah, look at all the Christian Scientists relying on god and not on human ingenuity.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

The concept that people have is something to the effect of, "This is my life, I have rights, and I'll do as I please." . This belief in a right of entitlement is a false assumption. Whether one likes it or not, our life belongs to God. Your heart is still beating today out of God's mercy and love for you to give you more time to choose Him.

The dilemma is simple; people either choose to obey or not. Disobedience results in death but The Lord made a take it or leave it deal with Jesus.

Israel knew better, David knew better, God acted justly. David should have turned to the Lord the instant He knew God was displeased but instead he counted his army. Israel was never meant to have a sword but they took up the sword anyway and God allowed it. Even David, the Lord declared that he couldn't build the temple because he had bloody hands. Moses too..and as a result he didn't enter the promised land. They've paid the price and will continue to do so, but still God will keep His promises to Abraham.

You don't need 70k people for an atrocity, you just need one. The problem is, that death is the penalty for sin and God prolonged that sentence to the last possible moment out of patience and mercy. They knew what the penalty was and they trusted in themselves. Pride and arrogance is the core element of sin.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 515

If you meet your god, tell him to leave me the hell alone.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Cygnus wrote:

If you meet your god, tell him to leave me the hell alone.

Well, there's good news/bad news on that.

He will call you until there is no hope of your turning. What that means is, as of right now He hasn't given up on you and there's an opportunity. That's good news. The bad is, all opportunities have an expiration date. For example, the 70k of the census had ample time to respond to God but unltimately chose to rely upon themselves.

People in general puff their chests out to exert their right of entitlement. That's just a natural reaction to defending your personal space. I get that. I also understand your disdain for people like myself, religion in general, and the gross hypocrisy it represents. But that is a result of mankind, not God. I'm simply suggesting that it's possibly worth considering whether your bitterness and contempt is directed at the wrong person.

I always tell people, don't trust me, or the bible, or a church or anything else man has had his hands on. Just seek God alone with a genuine desire to hear Him and know truth. Then continue seeking Him.

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:18 pm

Missionary wrote:

Israel knew better, David knew better, God acted justly.

Yes, your mythological god's ideal of justice is to cause harm. In the myth that is the bible, your god never magically “winks” people out of existence. The death it brings always involves suffering. I want nothing to do with a system of justice that’s in the business of harming others.

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I always tell people, don't trust me, or the bible, or a church or anything else man has had his hands on. Just seek God alone with a genuine desire to hear Him and know truth. Then continue seeking Him.

If this is true, then why do you place so much worth in the bible? Could it be because you have nothing without it?

The term "god" is so ambiguous I'd have absolutely no idea of what to search, even if I so desired; and my search certainly wouldn’t include the horrific being described in the bible.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

Israel knew better, David knew better, God acted justly.

Yes, your mythological god's ideal of justice is to cause harm. In the myth that is the bible, your god never magically “winks” people out of existence. The death it brings always involves suffering. I want nothing to do with a system of justice that’s in the business of harming others.

There's a purpose in everything. Harm is brought about by sin not God. The suffering is eternal and the demonstration of sin's eternal consequence is a suffering death. That is not cruel in light of the lesson it is intended to convey.

Whether you want or don't want anything to do with it is not your prerogative. That is precisely the point. One's humility now saves from an eternity of humiliation in the knowledge that they failed to choose God.

What many fail to consider is that God is merciful in that He does not strike people down on their first or hundreth offence but CONTINUES to reach a person for salvation. It is only when that person reaches the point of no return that judgment is executed. What that means is? You are still alive because of God's mercy and patience with you. Every person still alive has an opportunity left.

MockingGods wrote:

Missionary wrote:

I always tell people, don't trust me, or the bible, or a church or anything else man has had his hands on. Just seek God alone with a genuine desire to hear Him and know truth. Then continue seeking Him.

If this is true, then why do you place so much worth in the bible? Could it be because you have nothing without it?

No. The fact that we have it is secondary but beneficial. Realize that for over 4000 years nobody in Israel had a bible or Hebrew scriptures. God personally interacted with individual people. I don't mean one at a time, but I mean personally. He STILL does that today. However, once He showed up and saved me, He pointed me to His Word to learn more about Him. That's all. If Bible's were banned and burned today believers wouldn't even need them as we have the Holy Spirit indwelling who speaks, leads, teaches, etc. just like Jesus claimed He would.

You see, there are people who "try" Christianity by going to church and trying to "become a Christian". That's just a religious exercise that is destined for failure. Hence, people quit the faith. But those who answer God's personal call are born again by the Spirit. See John3

MockingGods wrote:

The term "god" is so ambiguous I'd have absolutely no idea of what to search, even if I so desired; and my search certainly wouldn’t include the horrific being described in the bible.

It is ambiguous in terms of world religion, I agree. The word "god" is actually a German derivative. However, there is only one Creator and if you're genuinely seeking He knows because He's already there with you calling and waiting. Seek isn't even the right word as the action of seeking is performed by God Himself, the real position of man is heeding or acknowledging but we may say seek simply to convey a condition of openness.

Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:26 pm

Missionary wrote:

Harm is brought about by sin not God.

In the OT, harm is often brought about by the god itself in response to sin. You love blaming (as most Christians do) everything on sin, when in fact, if this god created everything; he logically created sin (or at least the capacity for it) as well.

You see, it really doesn’t matter who or what is to blame (as a rather firm determinist when it comes to human behavior). All I see is instance after instance of the OT god in fits of violent destruction. This isn’t the type of a god I’d worship even if it was real.

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The suffering is eternal and the demonstration of sin's eternal consequence is a suffering death. That is not cruel in light of the lesson it is intended to convey.

Lessons can be conveyed without suffering, and certainly this wouldn't be beyond a god. I would never worship a god that used suffering to convey anything... period. What you portray here is cruel, and if your god existed, it would also be cruel for doing so. You think that because it’s possible to lame blame upon a second party it somehow obviates the cruelty. It doesn’t.

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One's humility now saves from an eternity of humiliation in the knowledge that they failed to choose God.

You’re under the wrong impression that I could choose this god by whim… it just doesn’t work that way. This god is nothing more then a myth to me.

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God personally interacted with individual people. I don't mean one at a time, but I mean personally.

This again is a naked assertion based only upon the text.

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However, once He showed up and saved me, He pointed me to His Word to learn more about Him.

You've probably had some type of religious experience you find compelling, but it holds no sway with me. To me, it’s simply a reaction happening within your brain and shows no external analogue.

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Seek isn't even the right word as the action of seeking is performed by God Himself, the real position of man is heeding or acknowledging but we may say seek simply to convey a condition of openness.

So obviously, as Reggie would say, this god doesn't want me to know it exists. However, if this god you’re promoting is the god of the OT and actually performed the violently destructive and vicious acts portrayed, I’d rather doubt I would worship it.

Perhaps if I could somehow deluded myself into thinking these portrayed acts were kind, when any rationally thinking human with even the slightest shred of empathy would think otherwise. This god you want me to accept is a monster.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 515

Missionary wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

If you meet your god, tell him to leave me the hell alone.

Well, there's good news/bad news on that.

He will call you until there is no hope of your turning. What that means is, as of right now He hasn't given up on you and there's an opportunity. That's good news. The bad is, all opportunities have an expiration date. For example, the 70k of the census had ample time to respond to God but unltimately chose to rely upon themselves.

People in general puff their chests out to exert their right of entitlement. That's just a natural reaction to defending your personal space. I get that. I also understand your disdain for people like myself, religion in general, and the gross hypocrisy it represents. But that is a result of mankind, not God. I'm simply suggesting that it's possibly worth considering whether your bitterness and contempt is directed at the wrong person.

I always tell people, don't trust me, or the bible, or a church or anything else man has had his hands on. Just seek God alone with a genuine desire to hear Him and know truth. Then continue seeking Him.

Oh really? Know what truth to be exact? Everything you're asserting about your god are just naked assertions. No one can prove the historical accuracy of any of god's overt acts described in the OT. The voracity of the NT is debatable as well. Many religions (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Mormonism, Hinduism) say they have proof. Mohammed rose to heaven on a horse with wings. Jesus rose from the dead. Buddha achieved Nirvana. What makes you think that you have the right one? Seeking the Christian god out with all my heart wont make him real.

I don't direct my bitterness to one person, but to the entire religious world. I scoff at all your gods.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

Cygnus wrote:

Missionary wrote:

Cygnus wrote:

If you meet your god, tell him to leave me the hell alone.

Well, there's good news/bad news on that.

He will call you until there is no hope of your turning. What that means is, as of right now He hasn't given up on you and there's an opportunity. That's good news. The bad is, all opportunities have an expiration date. For example, the 70k of the census had ample time to respond to God but unltimately chose to rely upon themselves.

People in general puff their chests out to exert their right of entitlement. That's just a natural reaction to defending your personal space. I get that. I also understand your disdain for people like myself, religion in general, and the gross hypocrisy it represents. But that is a result of mankind, not God. I'm simply suggesting that it's possibly worth considering whether your bitterness and contempt is directed at the wrong person.

I always tell people, don't trust me, or the bible, or a church or anything else man has had his hands on. Just seek God alone with a genuine desire to hear Him and know truth. Then continue seeking Him.

Oh really? Know what truth to be exact? Everything you're asserting about your god are just naked assertions. No one can prove the historical accuracy of any of god's overt acts described in the OT. The voracity of the NT is debatable as well. Many religions (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Mormonism, Hinduism) say they have proof. Mohammed rose to heaven on a horse with wings. Jesus rose from the dead. Buddha achieved Nirvana. What makes you think that you have the right one? Seeking the Christian god out with all my heart wont make him real.

I don't direct my bitterness to one person, but to the entire religious world. I scoff at all your gods.

I understand you're not just laying into me. Smile

Now, paraphrasing scripture isn't making a naked assertion. It's paraphrasing God's Word. But, you don't have to ascribe to that. You've got free will and all. I get that. So, just to clear up, I don't want you to think I would claim something that isn't written in the bible. I don't and I won't. It's just a matter of you saying it ain't so...just so we're clear.

But I do want to ask you if you can suppose a what if? type scenario.

Just suppose for the sake of argument that one of the religions we know of really is "The One". Let's say It's Hinduism. As it turns out, the god of creation started Hinduism, and tomorrow morning He/She/It shows It's big face in the sky and starts talking to everyone on the planet explaining how it's all over now and we will have peace. He/She/It says It's not leaving us again and everyone can see and hear the big Hindu god face and the mystery is cleared up once and for all.

The question is...How did all the other religions come into being?

There was a creator-god. There was confusion and false religion. There were wars over whose religion was The One. But as it turns out, the real God stepped out and made a revelation to mankind. So, how did the others spring up?

Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:11 pm

Missionary wrote:

Now, paraphrasing scripture isn't making a naked assertion. It's paraphrasing God's Word.

It's a naked assertion to say the bible (scripture) IS the word of a god. That statement requires proof. It could be said people (you for instance) believe the bible to be the word of a god without making a naked assertion.

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You've got free will and all.

You never explained to me how if the future is immutable there could be free will. If your god knows the future absolutely, and that future can not be changed, that is definitionally determinism. You can’t have an absolutely known, immutable future and free will at the same time, it’s contradictory.

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The question is...How did all the other religions come into being?

Fear, misunderstanding, myth building, superstition, humans wanting power, etc., is how religion is born.

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There was a creator-god.

Naked assertion.

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There was confusion and false religion. There were wars over whose religion was The One. But as it turns out, the real God stepped out and made a revelation to mankind.

It's more likely all religion is wrong rather then one being correct.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 515

Well, lets say that one religion is really The One. It's like everyone on the planet following all the religions is playing a version of Russian Roulette. Instead of 6 chambers, there are hundreds and instead of one bullet, there is only one empty chamber. How could any self respecting perfect being like ol Jehova let that kind of situation happen?

Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:27 am

Please stop feeding the troll.

The Learned Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 128

MockingGods wrote:

Quote:

The question is...How did all the other religions come into being?

Fear, misunderstanding, myth building, superstition, humans wanting power, etc., is how religion is born.

Okay, but the Hindu sky face has now cleared all that up. The mystery is solved. Looking back, why didn't we see it? How come we weren't Hindus? It was there all along and it was the right one, but why didn't WE become Hindus?

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

Knight_of_BAAWA wrote:

Please stop feeding the troll.

He's what's best about these sort of forums. Diversity of opinions. He's well mannered and passionate about his beliefs (assuming he's a he). I've no problem with his presence here.

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:29 am

Missionary wrote:

MockingGods wrote:

Quote:

The question is...How did all the other religions come into being?

Fear, misunderstanding, myth building, superstition, humans wanting power, etc., is how religion is born.

Okay, but the Hindu sky face has now cleared all that up. The mystery is solved. Looking back, why didn't we see it? How come we weren't Hindus? It was there all along and it was the right one, but why didn't WE become Hindus?

One reason we all don't become Hindus is because we all don't live in India, if you get my meaning. We're merely a product of who we're born to and which environment we're born into. The main reason though is that there's just no evidence to support the Hindu religion(or any religion for that matter).


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