The bible says that he burnt it in fire, ground it up into powder and mixed it with water then forced the people to drink it (Exodus 32:19-20).
Just to clear things up.
_________________ No god is better than no God.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 8:00 am
Missionary wrote:
MockingGods wrote:
Watching the history channel today I was presented with a biblical story I had either forgotten or didn’t know about. It seems David was ordered by God to take a census of the Israelites and was given specific instructions on how to conduct the census. It seems David didn’t want to conduct the census according to God’s plan and instead did a direct head count.
What causes you to believe God ordered David?
So, as the myth goes, God killed 70k Israelites and it wasn't even because David did soemthing against this god's command?
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 11:17 am
Sliced_Bread wrote:
The bible says that he burnt it in fire, ground it up into powder and mixed it with water then forced the people to drink it (Exodus 32:19-20).
Just to clear things up.
Yeah, it doesn't seem to be molten as Cygnus claimed.
Last edited by Missionary on Fri May 23, 2008 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 11:19 am
MockingGods wrote:
Missionary wrote:
MockingGods wrote:
Watching the history channel today I was presented with a biblical story I had either forgotten or didn’t know about. It seems David was ordered by God to take a census of the Israelites and was given specific instructions on how to conduct the census. It seems David didn’t want to conduct the census according to God’s plan and instead did a direct head count.
What causes you to believe God ordered David?
So, as the myth goes, God killed 70k Israelites and it wasn't even because David did soemthing against this god's command?
So, what happened then? Did God just go off half cocked spittin' out death?
Sliced_Bread Newbie First Class
Joined: Jan 08, 2008
Posts: 27
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 12:31 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the "he" that calls for the census
not
God? Hence the fact that it says "he" and not "He". Now in the 'Young Literal Translation' it says "An adversary" (instead of he) incites David...", which most xtians say it was Satan that called for the census not God. Also, looking up some information on the subject, they say that it's not the census that pissed off God, it was because they were counting men to fight for the king. Regardless, after David did the head count he gives it to the king and then God steps in asks David how to punish the people that he counted because David counted them!?! not because of anything they did but because of something David did. David even asks God not to punish the innocent people and to punish him for his sins but God ignores him.
It still raises the question of why 70k people died for one mans actions?
_________________ No god is better than no God.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 6:13 pm
Quote:
It still raises the question of why 70k people died for one mans actions?
Yes, this is precisely the question our good friend Missionary seems to be avoiding.
I can easily guess what “really” happened. The myth was probably developed after a disastrous infection killed a bunch of people and someone (probably not David) was feeling guilty about something they’d done. They blamed all the deaths on the Jewish god because of said action and coincidently when someone burned up some good smelling meat as a sacrifice, the infection seemingly magically abated… and the legend was born.
This is a classic motif in ancient beliefs concerning wholesale human death and suffering… either blame it on a god or demons.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 6:13 pm
Quote:
So, what happened then? Did God just go off half cocked spittin' out death?
That's what the story lends itself too.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 6:17 pm
FYI... I took the original post from the show I saw in the history channel and didn't read the actually biblical story until a later date. I'm wondering if there aren't different versions of this tail
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 9:34 pm
No need to read the actual text. Myths are born and bred in web forums these days with molten lead, avoiding missionaries, tv programs, and majik meats.
Invent as you wish.
Missionary The Learned
Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 128
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 11:07 pm
Sliced_Bread wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the "he" that calls for the census
not
God? Hence the fact that it says "he" and not "He". Now in the 'Young Literal Translation' it says "An adversary" (instead of he) incites David...", which most xtians say it was Satan that called for the census not God. Also, looking up some information on the subject, they say that it's not the census that pissed off God, it was because they were counting men to fight for the king. Regardless, after David did the head count he gives it to the king and then God steps in asks David how to punish the people that he counted because David counted them!?! not because of anything they did but because of something David did. David even asks God not to punish the innocent people and to punish him for his sins but God ignores him.
It still raises the question of why 70k people died for one mans actions?
For anyone who's ever studied Latin or Greek translation to English isn't a simple task. Hebrew, and especially ancient Hebrew can be even more difficult.
2 Samuel 24 indicates two events 1) the Lord was displeased-cause unstated and, 2) David was moved to number-cause of 2 is unstated. The Hebrew word translated in the KJV as
"and he moved"
:
Quote:
Hebrew Strong's Number: 5496
Hebrew Word: סוּת
Transliteration: sût
Root: perhaps denominative from <H7898>
Cross Reference: TWOT - 1481
Part of Speech: v
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
persuade 5
move 5
set on 2
stir up 2
away 1
entice 1
provoked 1
removed 1
[Total Count: 18]
perhaps denominative from <H7898> (shayith); properly to prick, i.e. (figurative) stimulate; by implication to seduce :- entice, move, persuade, provoke, remove, set on, stir up, take away.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary
This passage (for comparison) uses the same exact verb #5496 and is rendered, "although thou movedst me against him"
Quote:
Job 2:3 (KJV)
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity,
although thou movedst me against him
, to destroy him without cause.
In 2 Sam. someone moved somebody. The
moved
in event 2 was David while
the mover
is unspoken. The mover doesn't automatically presume the prior event or persons mentioned in the prior event. There is no punctuation in Hebrew. The actual text literally reads from 7 Hebrew words:
God was displeased over some sin
AND
David was moved to number by someone not mentioned. The "he" is named in 1 Chron. 21:1 AND the sin is revealed.
Quote:
1 Chronicles 21:1 (KJV)
1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Notice that Satan
stood up against
Israel. This in turn provokes David to number. So, we're not talking about some benign administrative formality of conducting a leisurely census as is often the argument presented. That God is somehow triggered to unleash a rampage of holy fury for the transgression of carrying out a social service. No.
God's anger is first with Israel. The transgression is the very same since it was from the Sinai desert; "We will defend
ourselves
by the sword instead of calling upon the Lord for defense". Israel trusted in themselves and not God. They depended upon their own strength and might, not God's.
David's transgression was his failure as king and leader to model faith and trust in God to his army. David himself was depending upon armed men to guard Israel, not God. This attitude transferred to Israel who in turn puffed themselves up as mighty defenders of God's people, God's city, and God's temple.
This is the setting in which Israel and David find themselves when Gad enters the picture. Read David's response to Gad and the Lord and we can move on to it and the outcome if you still see conflict. The key is David's response.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Sat May 24, 2008 6:18 am
Missionary wrote:
No need to read the actual text. Myths are born and bred in web forums these days with molten lead, avoiding missionaries, tv programs, and majik meats.
Invent as you wish.
Just as they were in the book of myth you hold so dear.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Sat May 24, 2008 6:30 am
Missionary wrote:
This is the setting in which Israel and David find themselves when Gad enters the picture. Read David's response to Gad and the Lord and we can move on to it and the outcome if you still see conflict. The key is David's response.
The only thing I see is a myth about a god that uses violence as a mechanism to punish. This god is nothing more then cruel anthropomorphic projection of these ancient superstitious humans.
Quote:
God was displeased over some sin AND David was moved to number by someone not mentioned. The "he" is named in 1 Chron. 21:1 AND the sin is revealed.
Yup, the answer for sin in the OT is extreme violence. This is a really nice god
Oh wait, Jesus came to change all that, but before it could be changed this god called for the horrible bloody end to that life too. I can understand the need people have for metaphysical existentialism, but to worship this god is just patently absurd.
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3850
Location: USA
Posted:
Sat May 24, 2008 7:39 am
Missionary wrote:
avoiding missionaries
If only that were possible
Cygnus Resident
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 392
Posted:
Sat May 24, 2008 8:18 am
Missionary wrote:
Sliced_Bread wrote:
The bible says that he burnt it in fire, ground it up into powder and mixed it with water then forced the people to drink it (Exodus 32:19-20).
Just to clear things up.
Yeah, it doesn't seem to be molten as Cygnus claimed.
Still would have screwed up the intestins. We're talking about gold powder here.
Wait, there's more. Read Exodus 32:25-29. Moses is still none the better.
Sliced_Bread Newbie First Class
Joined: Jan 08, 2008
Posts: 27
Posted:
Sat May 24, 2008 9:11 am
Cygnus wrote:
Missionary wrote:
Sliced_Bread wrote:
The bible says that he burnt it in fire, ground it up into powder and mixed it with water then forced the people to drink it (Exodus 32:19-20).
Just to clear things up.
Yeah, it doesn't seem to be molten as Cygnus claimed.
Still would have screwed up the intestins. We're talking about gold powder here.
Wait, there's more. Read Exodus 32:25-29. Moses is still none the better.
I think we can all agree the god of the OT was a dick. I was not by any means defending what Moses did or his call to action against innocent people...
But we are still waiting to hear Missionary give us a justifiable reason for God to kill 70k people (not this "God works in mysterious ways" bull). Why was David chosen to act for God but ignored when he asked to bare the burden of his "sin"?
Missionary wrote:
God's anger is first with Israel. The transgression is the very same since it was from the Sinai desert; "We will defend ourselves by the sword instead of calling upon the Lord for defense". Israel trusted in themselves and not God. They depended upon their own strength and might, not God's.
...and does this make being self reliant a punishable offense in the eyes of God? If He is punishing them for trusting in themselves rather than God to protect them, what about all the other people in the world? Why wouldn't they be punished for their sins, their self reliant armies AND lack of belief in the chosen peoples God?
If anything this passage says that people must have faith in God because God has NO faith in his people.
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