Free Will

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 550

The Christian idea of god giving us free will is used by Christians to explain a lot of stuff, such as why he can't magically fix everything despite his alleged omnipotence. That being said, why would he even bother giving us free will? And since he gave us free will, why didn't he create the earth so that man's material problems would not lead him into conflict with other man?

This can be explained by Genesis, which basically says that since Adam and Eve ate the apple, they gained free will and incurred the wrath of God and were therefore punished. However, we know that Genesis is basically incorrect about the origin of life. Does anyone have a response?

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:14 am

Actually it doesn't say ANYWHERE in the Bible that humans have free will. The Bible itself actually suggests a more Calvinistic deity (Romans Chapter 7, Galatians Chapter 4, Ephesians 2).

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 550

The bible doesn't say it, but we have it nonetheless. If we have it and god exists, then this god must have given it to us when he made us. It makes no sense that he would do as such when not doing so would make the whole world easier to run for him.

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:29 pm

Cygnus wrote:

The bible doesn't say it, but we have it nonetheless.

Contracausal freewill is a myth. We humans make no choices unaffected by a causal chain of events. Certainly we make choices, but those choices are a direct result of conditioning. It seems the main reason people like to believe in absolute freewill is so that we can justify our tendency to violently punish those who violate our relative sense of morality.

Most Christians believe in absolute freewill to justify the horrific manner in which the god of the bible treats wrong doers. “Even though God told her not too, she turned her head and looked back at the city… poof, pillar of salt”.

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:05 pm

Cygnus wrote:

That being said, why would he even bother giving us free will? And since he gave us free will, why didn't he create the earth so that man's material problems would not lead him into conflict with other man?

The strange answer to that question, which many xians won't even deny, is that god created man for his glorification. (Even when I was a christian, from a young age my brain could not understand why the FUCK god would be so vain). But he didn't want little robots to follow him. Makes sense that being glorified by automatons probably wouldn't give god a hardon. Like if you wrote a computer program that regularly told you how cool you were.

This is what it boils down to: God created hundreds of billions of humans so that 2-3% might worship him, with the side effect that 98% of them for are to be tortured for all eternity. God isn't just a primadonna, he's a sadist.

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This can be explained by Genesis, which basically says that since Adam and Eve ate the apple, they gained free will and incurred the wrath of God and were therefore punished.

Many christians have thought God stacked the deck against adam and even and actually knew they would fall. Why? So that he could put his plan of grace and salvation into action. SERIOUSLY!

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However, we know that Genesis is basically incorrect about the origin of life. Does anyone have a response?

Not only that, but the first creation account in genesis contradicts the second. Xians have about 100 bad arguments that "prove" there's really not contradiction between the accounts, but they're all shameless harmonizations.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 550

According to the bible, god frequently walked with Adam and Eve in the garden and talked with them. Apparently god was lonely. If he was omniscient, he would have seen the fall comming. He would have kicked the devil out in the first place.

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Many christians have thought God stacked the deck against adam and even and actually knew they would fall. Why? So that he could put his plan of grace and salvation into action. SERIOUSLY!

Yeah, that does sound like a screwed up god to me. I kind of had the same trouble with why god created us when I was still believing.

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:40 am

Cygnus wrote:

According to the bible, god frequently walked with Adam and Eve in the garden and talked with them. Apparently god was lonely. If he was omniscient, he would have seen the fall comming. He would have kicked the devil out in the first place.

Uh, you mean, he wouldn't have CREATED the devil to begin with. On second thought, maybe he shouldn't have CREATED evil either.

God is such a dickhead its unbelievable. Humans worshiping god is basically them saying, "THANK YOU SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!"

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 550

Quote:

Uh, you mean, he wouldn't have CREATED the devil to begin with. On second thought, maybe he shouldn't have CREATED evil either.

This goes back to the Christian 'free will' thingy. Christians would say 'well, the Devil left god of his own free will and it was he who created evil'. This would, of course, fly in the face of their claims of God's omnipotence. So god can't even keep his angels in line, now?

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:44 am

Cygnus wrote:

Quote:

Uh, you mean, he wouldn't have CREATED the devil to begin with. On second thought, maybe he shouldn't have CREATED evil either.

This goes back to the Christian 'free will' thingy. Christians would say 'well, the Devil left god of his own free will and it was he who created evil'. This would, of course, fly in the face of their claims of God's omnipotence. So god can't even keep his angels in line, now?

I have heard several times in the past that angels aren't supposed to have free will and are basically automatons, but this of course contradicts the idea of the fall of satan.

But if angels DID have free will, why the fuck would he feel the need to create humans?

Every work of fiction contains contradictions, and the bible has more than most.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 550

There are a lot of contradictions in th bible. Some liberal Christians would say that a lot ot that stuff was put in there by man and written by man. But if god was omnipotent, he would have stopped all this mistruth from being put in his book. Yet it's there. They would also say that this is part of god's plan, but why exactly does an omnipotent being need a plan if he can magically make everything right?

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 03, 2008 Posts: 3

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why exactly does an omnipotent being need a plan if he can magically make everything right?

I think tht if "God" were to magically make everything right he would find no beauty in that. Just imagine the possibility of each and every mind being created by something. Minds tht have unbelievable capabilities, and ones tht have an unlimitednumber of perspectives. In tht sense it is an incredible and beautiful thing.
I think tht if there is a god(most likely is) thn every1 will eventually go to "heaven" (yeah even hitler). I rekon tht bad is in the world 4 a reason. As wot is good without bad things. Without evil (percieved evil), good wud not be good but rather simply "the norm". And also pain and suffering is only bad as its experienced. Afterwords, one appreciates the lack of pain. Therefore it's the end result tht counts (possibly wen every1 goes 2 heaven).
P.s. The Bible in its original form (Greek) in no way mentions or even implies an "Eternal Hell". Go to sites like www.tentmaker.org or www.bibletruths.com for more info.

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 03, 2008 Posts: 3

If something created the universe (quite the feat i thik you'll agree), then it all created everything in the universe today, whether it came about by ridiculously improbable events or not, it means he created us aswell. We are AMAZING MACHINES. This all shows us the capability of the creator of everything. There is no way this creator would have created this complex universe (and its contents, whether directly or not) without knowing how we human being would live. He would therefore know what our paths were and what decisions we'd make throughout life. He also caused us to have our minds as they are (individually) and so is responsible for all things we do. This disproves free will (in correspondence with a "creator"). OUR CREATOR WOULD HAVE HAD FREE WILL in choosing the state of mind, personality and potential for good and bad tht we all have, yet we do not, as all our actions can be traced back to(were caused by) the creator's actions.
So basically we're really not on a level playing field in terms of potential moral goodness. Some where brought up by more moral parents thn others were, Hilter for example, really got the short straw!

Just Arrived Joined: Apr 03, 2008 Posts: 3

Quote:

Contracausal freewill is a myth. We humans make no choices unaffected by a causal chain of events. Certainly we make choices, but those choices are a direct result of conditioning. It seems the main reason people like to believe in absolute freewill is so that we can justify our tendency to violently punish those who violate our relative sense of morality.

Most Christians believe in absolute freewill to justify the horrific manner in which the god of the bible treats wrong doers. “Even though God told her not too, she turned her head and looked back at the city… poof, pillar of salt”.

Your completely right in explaining our lack of free will but your wrong in your perception of the god of the bible. Go to www.tentmaker.org and learn that the God of the Bible doesnt punish anyone for eternity and doesnt give out any "violent" punishments. The "Hell" doctrine comes from northern europe tradition, pagan tradition, not from the original Greek Scriptures, go to the site, V INTERSTING!

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:19 am

Welcome to the forums dbzdecathlete Very Happy

dbzdecathlete wrote:

Go to www.tentmaker.org and learn that the God of the Bible doesnt punish anyone for eternity and doesnt give out any "violent" punishments.

Albeit mythology, just one example of this god's tendency to violently punish people can be found in the great flood event. In this myth, he violently destroyed every human (and most of the sinless animals) on the planet, save the ones that obeyed his command. In another mythical account he viciously destroyed 60,000 Israelites simply because David couldn’t properly conduct a census. In the Garden of Eden myth he condemns Adam and Eve to sufferning and death simply because they ate a piece of fruit he forbade. I could go on and on… should I?

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The "Hell" doctrine comes from northern europe tradition, pagan tradition, not from the original Greek Scriptures, go to the site, V INTERSTING!

The Hell doctrine is just as much a myth as the Heaven doctrine. I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, which as a religion, rejects the typical hell doctrine of standard Christianity. So even without reading the link, I’m probably fairly well acquainted with the arguments, which are moot as far as I’m concerned anyway.

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I think tht if "God" were to magically make everything right he would find no beauty in that.

So he continues to allow humans (among other animals) to suffer the pains of this mortal existence simply to appease his sense of aesthetics? I just don’t have the words to express how horrible that sounds.

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:46 am

dbzdecathlete wrote:

I think tht if "God" were to magically make everything right he would find no beauty in that.

Interesting idea. Esthetics is the justification for morality.

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I rekon tht bad is in the world 4 a reason. As wot is good without bad things.

No. You have your answer, given by you. Evil is beautiful.


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