There Are No Real Arguments Against Gay Marriage

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:49 am

sjc wrote:

Saitou wrote:

If they are able in body and mind and they are truly poor then that could only mean they were denied better opportunities or that they made decisions that made them poor.

The climate, in the USA, now is to outsource many of these jobs to countries where the the pay is next to nothing, so in fact they had the opportunity taken away from many of them.

People like you tend to focus on outsourcing while ignoring insourcing and job losses instead of job creations. You also fail to see the links between the two.

Quote:

In the USA opportunity abounds. Many poor in the USA made poor decisions and continue to and do not take advantage of opportunities.

sjc wrote:

These opportunities are becoming less and less.

When the economy has enlarged and millions of new jobs are created? Not really. The opportunities for those who fail to learn the skills of a modern economy might decrease but then forcing people to pay more and for our productivity to fall just so people who refuse to modernize can have jobs is not a good policy. Should we have delayed the automobile for decades because of the poor horse and buggy operators? Perhaps automation is "evil" like outsourcing.

sjc wrote:

Yes, I've read enough of your post to know what you truly mean. You see public education, and heath care as being none of the business of the State.

Wrong, and wrong. I support the government ensuring that every child is guaranteed a quality education and that nobody is left to die because they can't pay. What I do not support is the current public school system that provides pathetic quality schooling and forces parents to move if they want their kid to go to a better school. I do not support a socialized medical system that locks everyone into a rationed system with waiting lists and inferior quality.

sjc wrote:

If anything the USA has taught us about what happens when they private sector manages these things the quality of them suffers greatly for the majority over that of a minority.

Costs are up in our medical system but the quality is still the best in the world. Our system improves the quality of care for nearly everyone.

sjc wrote:

That's the thing. It is in the best interests of others to know much of your government and system. As I've said, "When sleeping with an elephant every unexpected twitch and movement could prove to be fatal.." P. E. Trudeau. We have to make the effort to know you. Most Americans don't bother to know even their closes allies.

Well you actually made a good point here. Everyone should know what's going on here and why including Americans themselves. One of the things that really angers me about our public school system is how it miserably fails to teach American history and how our government works.

Quote:

We are some of the free-est people on this earth.

sjc wrote:

No, you're not. You are getting less free all the time..... While up here, in Canada, we are gaining more and more rights and freedoms. i.e SSM, medical pot, etc, etc...

Those are some very weak standards of freedom you have there. Is your press as free (to suck) as ours is? Do you have many laws that criminalize thoughts? How about ownership rights?

Quote:

The people in the US are currently enjoying the strongest economy in human history. Now that the Dems won the election the media might soon start reporting on it. They'll wait until after January though.

sjc wrote:

What you seem to fail to see, and I think that is is willful on your part, is that more and more this economy is translating less and less to the majority of Americans.

Nonsense. Every income group is doing better than it was. In fact, now that the Democrats have won the media is going to start reporting how wages have gone up nicely over the last year or so. People may whine about income disparity between the poorest and most rich but only because they are too ignorant to know that doesn't matter much if at all. More wealth for them (and anyone else) means more wealth for everyone if you understand how wealth is created and is NOT distributed.

sjc wrote:

An example of a "good fact" is like with the recent announcement that 91% of all American high schoolers, who took their final exams, passed and then graduated. On the surface this sounds quite impressive, but what they don't tell you is that they didn't count the students who dropped out and never took these exams.

LOL. Yes they do! Read what you wrote yourself, "91% of all American high schoolers, who took their final exams, passed and then graduated." If people want to be stupid and assume that "who took their final exams" means nothing and can think of this as all students then shame on them.

sjc wrote:

That is around a third of the total. So, a "real fact" is that this is only 91% of two-thirds of the total who graduated. Around 61%. A little over half, not so impressive.

I agree. Our schools suck and our students still fail. The need for reform of government schools and American's respect for education is urgent.

sjc wrote:

The republicans do the same sort of "good fact" manipulation with unemployment numbers as well.

If you think only republicans do this kind of thing then you are missing it when everyone else does it.

sjc wrote:

As I said, now that the democrats have a majority, in both house, this will hopefully change and that gay persons will have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else in America.

Should only gay persons have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else? What about the other areas where the government discriminates that you probably support? Affirmative action type laws for example. Hey if enough people decide that marriage should extend to include gays that's fine with me--it's even been my own position for some time now. What I have a problem with is the government forcing this on people overturning the legislative process. If they can do this for things you support and you applaud don't be surprised when it's done for things you don't support. As I explained before government supported and created benefits for marriage are not a constitutionally created right. Also the government doesn't have to apply laws to everyone equally. Should it? Perhaps. If it did we might all get paid not to grow certain crops. Wink

sjc wrote:

Also, come 2008 if a democrat will get elected things will improve for all and America can concentrate on what is truly important instead of what it has been doing.

What's truly important like medical pot? Laughing

I happen to think protecting America and hindering theocratic and dictatorial regimes around the world are important things. As is a growing economy.

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:52 am

sleepr wrote:

Saitou wrote:

The only reason I can see for government to be involved is to encourage the behavior. Healthy marriages and families help increase the odds of producing the best citizens for the future of our country.

Nothing like using vague generalizations to attempt and make a point.

I'd like to add that, if anything, social science has shown marriage to be meaningless in the development of law-abiding citizens. All else is myth

Oh? How many people in prison had a stable home life with two parents? How often are the parents married?

When you get married and have kids it changes your life. You probably don't know this as a know-it-all kid.

In my view until you take on important responsibilities you aren't even a full grown up.

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:21 am

sleepr wrote:

Saitou wrote:

In the USA opportunity abounds. Many poor in the USA made poor decisions and continue to and do not take advantage of opportunities.

Except that many of the poor stay under-educated, leading to their ignorance on what is a good opportunity and what is not.

Why do they stay under-educated? Can they not get a library card? Can the not get on the internet? Can they not afford a book? Why didn't they pay attention in school? Are none in the legion of bleeding heart liberals willing to help these people learn? Or could it be these people don't want to make the effort?

sleepr wrote:

Many in this position think the lottery is a good opportunity and this is not their fault, but the fault of those who never corrected them.

Perfect example of the kind of thinking that makes one a liberal and a clueless moron in my view. It is someone else's fault that someone doesn't know something and not the fault of the person who lacks the information. Or is this only the case when someone is poor? Are they pathetic sub-humans incapable of learning on their own? I think that's the kind of condescending thinking common with liberals.

sleepr wrote:

Another great example might be a gang. A gang and a life of crime might look like a pretty great opportunity when you have nothing and are ignorant of the negatives like the likelihood of capture upon criminal action.

How can they be ignorant of the likelihood of being captured? What a joke! You have no idea WTF you're talking about. These people know many who are in prison or in-and-out again and again.

sleepr wrote:

Another great example is one you like to bring up, about mothers who have un-protected sex and are not ready for the consequences. Unready mothers having children. Sex-ed (and I mean good sex-ed) would have really helped them. Math skills enough to know why prophylactics are so great, social upbringing enough to know that abortion is ok and not evil, and so much more.

Are you suggesting that a lot of people don't know they'll get pregnant if they don't use protection? I think it's a lot more likely they don't make the effort to get it or ensure it's used.

sleepr wrote:

Remember that stupidity is almost always due to ignorance and children should not be put into the position later in life to where they might not know what is a positive or negative decision. This is called a cycle and your attitude perpetuates it.

My attitude perpetuates it??!!! You're out of your mind!! It's your attitude that perpetuates these kinds of things by not holding people to any kind of standard and who promotes a society where nobody judges anyone else and nobody takes responsibility.

Blacks have allowed themselves to depend on government more than any other group and look at how much harm liberal ideas like welfare have destroyed the black family and by extension their community. I think blacks would be better off it they listened more to the church than liberals. If more blacks get married, stay married, take care of their kids and demand performance things would improve dramatically! The reasons why Asians and Jews so often outperform everyone else is because they do this more than other groups. Whites are starting to follow the same path as blacks have and for the sake of our society our culture needs to turn around and again value education and family more than cheap thrills, easy money, and shallow shit. Idols like Paris Hilton are symptoms of a great societal sickness. The reaction to Katrina is a symptom of a great societal weakness.

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:52 pm

AntJ313 wrote:

Saitou, let's go back in history, even though you dislike the subject...

If a white person wanted to marry a black person in Alabama 100 years ago, should they have to wait on a the population to vote, and okay a marriage that previously wasn't recognized by the law?

If they wanted to actually be legally married, then yes, they'd have to, wouldn't they? Otherwise, they could just live together like they were married, but would face a lot of reprisals and would have none of the protections and rights that the legally married enjoyed.

Should it happen that way? Maybe not. Is that the reality of it? Yes, unquestionably so.

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:34 am

Cephus404 wrote:

AntJ313 wrote:

Saitou, let's go back in history, even though you dislike the subject...

If a white person wanted to marry a black person in Alabama 100 years ago, should they have to wait on a the population to vote, and okay a marriage that previously wasn't recognized by the law?

If they wanted to actually be legally married, then yes, they'd have to, wouldn't they? .

That's why this way of thinking is bullshit.

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:13 am

Here is the decision that did away with laws banning interracial marriages: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html

It is based on the 14th amendment.

It also contains this, "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival."

So it seems like a new interpretation of the 14th amendment or a new amendment will do the trick and remove another unfair ban. Otherwise we need people to loosen up and remove the bans in their state laws and constitutions.

It is somewhat embarrassing how recently such racist laws existed and and amazing how different things are today. Or not. The parallels between this and the gay marriage battle are not trivial.

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:34 pm

AntJ313 wrote:

That's why this way of thinking is bullshit.

Of course it is, but it doesn't stop anyone from thinking this way, mostly because theistic thought is inherently irrational. You can't argue with a Christian, they think they're automatically right, no matter how much evidence you bring to the table that theyr'e wrong. If God said it, they believe it, even if it's bullshit.

Confident Learner Joined: Nov 22, 2004 Posts: 82

My argument against gay marriage:

Marriage is a ritual. Rituals belong in churches. Seperation of state and all that. There is no reason for the government to regulate or aknowledge marriage.

This debate only exists because we assume the government should be in charge of who is allowed to marry.

So, yeah, I'm against gay marriage... and straight marriage. People can do whatever rituals they want, and the government shouldn't acknowledge them.

Thinker Joined: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 423

bradsnet wrote:

My argument against gay marriage:

Marriage is a ritual. Rituals belong in churches. Seperation of state and all that. There is no reason for the government to regulate or aknowledge marriage.

As I had said. Marriage is not the ritual. It is a contract. The ritual is the wedding. It is held in a church. You can get married totally without involving the church at all. It can be as simple as each signing a piece of paper.

Thinker Joined: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 423

Millions of jobs created? Hmmm, must be more of those "good" facts you love so much. Millions of jobs for whom? Let me see, there are over 11 million, or even maybe 20, million illegal aliens in the USA now. Yes, I can see where they will get their new "employees" from.... And of course millions of new jobs in India and China as well.

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:07 am

AntJ313 wrote:

Cephus404 wrote:

AntJ313 wrote:

Saitou, let's go back in history, even though you dislike the subject...

If a white person wanted to marry a black person in Alabama 100 years ago, should they have to wait on a the population to vote, and okay a marriage that previously wasn't recognized by the law?

If they wanted to actually be legally married, then yes, they'd have to, wouldn't they? .

That's why this way of thinking is bullshit.

My way of thinking is that laws should be made in a consistent manner and not circumvented by people who think they have the moral high ground. It's dangerous to think that "my" morality should trump the established legal process.

Confident Learner Joined: Nov 22, 2004 Posts: 82

Marriage is ritual... symbol...

Please list anything that a marriage provides that you can't get without it.

I can't think of a single thing. You can even have a contract that binds two people financially, gives them rights regarding each other, etc... without marriage.

IMHO, a system where the government is required to approve of my personal life is flawed. Gay or not. We shouldn't have put this kind of authority into the realm of government in the first place.

I don't see much difference between a marriage license and a baptism license, a bris license, a bar mitzvah license, or a license to pray.

Thinker Joined: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 423

bradsnet wrote:

Marriage is ritual... symbol...

Please list anything that a marriage provides that you can't get without it.

I can't think of a single thing. You can even have a contract that binds two people financially, gives them rights regarding each other, etc... without marriage.

IMHO, a system where the government is required to approve of my personal life is flawed. Gay or not. We shouldn't have put this kind of authority into the realm of government in the first place.

I don't see much difference between a marriage license and a baptism license, a bris license, a bar mitzvah license, or a license to pray.

You have to be licensed to be baptized? How much is the fee? You are probably looking for the term certificate. A baptismal certificate can be used the same as a birth certificate, if you are raised Catholic, for when I.D. is needed if you don't already have a photo I.D. or need to get one and it is free.

Confident Learner Joined: Nov 22, 2004 Posts: 82

Yes, because clearly I also think you need a license to pray. Smile

I was using those examples of things for licences I know DO NOT exist, to point out the absurdity of a marriage license.

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:33 pm

Saitou wrote:

My way of thinking is that laws should be made in a consistent manner and not circumvented by people who think they have the moral high ground. It's dangerous to think that "my" morality should trump the established legal process.

I love it when we share the same opinion. Very Happy


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