Here is some advice, from one who was part of a secular organization in college.
Make sure that your meetings do not simply devolve into people simply bitching about theism. Have some positive things on the meeting's agenda.
If I were you, I would even see if you can do something on behalf of the school. The better reputation you have, the more successful your club - and people's view of atheists - will be.
Maybe, it might even be worth your while to find out if there are other religious of belief-centered (even philosophy) groups at your school. Get in touch with them and see if you all can do some things together or in tandem.
As I said, the more you can get your name out there as a group that is not simply AGAINST stuff, but is actually FOR doing positive things, the better success you will have in the long run.
Raskolnikov The Learned
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:01 pm
Very upsetting update:
So guys, you know that teacher I told you about 2 weeks ago that I said would host my club? She changed her mind the very next day and said she didn't want to host it. For some reason after she talked to the Assistant Principal she decided not to do it. Wierd huh?
I didn't tell you guys about this because I had another teacher lined up just in case something like this happened. The next teacher, whom I will refer to as Mr. G, said to give him a week to think about it and to talk to some people. So last Wednesday I go back to him to see if he wanted to host it, I have waited a week by this time, and he said no because the administration has been telling some teachers not to host it, and he personally didn't want to host it because he was Catholic. So that was the last straw. I told Ray (The gentleman from Las Vegas Humanist Association) to make his calls and I just got an email today from the president of the American Humanist Association...
Quote:
Hi Tyler, I am president of the American Humanist Association (www.americanhumanist.org). I live in Las Vegas and your letters were forwarded to me. I think the school's actions in your situation are outrageous and either I or the director of our Legal Center may be willing to write a letter on your behalf and even consider a lawsuit on your behalf. Would you send me a current update and let me know if any of the facts you related below have changed? Mel Lipman
Here's to hoping something gets done!
Ladyhawk Just Arrived
Joined: Feb 26, 2008
Posts: 3
Posted:
Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:36 pm
Raskolnikov,
Some unsolicited advice from a woman who has had to deal with the Vegas school system on more than one occasion:
1) Have you considered contacting the local media and discussing the problem with them? I know the R-J leans well to the right of center but there's a strong chance that either the Sun or one of the R-J contributing columnists might get interested. Also one of the news stations had an investigative segment when I was there (channel 13 maybe? can't remember). The admin may get marginally less pissed off at being contacted by a reporter than being contacted by an attorney, and it might move things along a bit more quickly than legal action would.
2) It might not be a bad idea to email the assistant principal, with a CC to the principal and/or superintendent, detailing what you have told us here and asking why the teachers are being pressured not to sponsor the club. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get some kind of official response from them. Keep a copy of the sent letter, and any replies you might get from them.
JMO. Good luck!
PureAtheist Just Arrived
Joined: May 31, 2003
Posts: 3
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:01 am
I agree with Ladyhawk about getting a response in email and about possibly contacting a news source in LV.
Have you heard anything back from Mel Lipman or RayJ? I just had dinner with both of them last night and I forgot to ask about the progress of your situation.
Raskolnikov The Learned
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:57 am
PureAtheist wrote:
I agree with Ladyhawk about getting a response in email and about possibly contacting a news source in LV.
Have you heard anything back from Mel Lipman or RayJ? I just had dinner with both of them last night and I forgot to ask about the progress of your situation.
Mel said he couldn't make any real threats unless I get a teacher to sign a paper saying that they heard the administration said not to host the club. I've asked the teachers if they would, but they don't want to stick their necks out.
Hurtman2000 Grand Poster
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 1606
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:20 am
Raskolnikov,
Have you looked into the school's policy as to how clubs may be formed, and what the process is? We wouldn't want them to change its wording if it ever does come down to some kind of arbitration or hearing .
Rich Goscicki
(author of Mirror Reversal, Peppertree Press, 2007)
Too bad it never got started *sigh*
There's always next year =P
Brian37 Master of Logic
Joined: Oct 04, 2003
Posts: 9384
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:36 am
Raskolnikov wrote:
This letter I wrote to Atheist Alliance International and American Atheists explains my entire situation.
Quote:
To Whom it May Concern,
Hello! My name is Tyler Chalker. I am 17 years old and I goto Silverado High School in Las Vegas, Nevada. For the past month and a half now I have been desperately trying to start an Atheist Club at my school, but for some reason it has been INCREDIBLY difficult.
I first thought of the idea in class while I was reading about the F.A.C.T. (Fellowship Among Christian Teens) club and I thought, "If they can have a club why shouldn't I?" So I went to my chess coach (Whom I will from this point on refer to as Mr. V) and asked him if I could have an unofficial atheist club in his room for a bit, he said ok and I set to work.
The next day I got about 11 students to come and I gave a presentation, but unfortunately I was constantly interrupted by other theists in the room who were there doing homework. So I decided to ask the teacher in the room beside my chess coach (whom I will refer to from this point on as Mr. C) if I could use it and he said, "Sure, is it a secret meeting?" A little bit suprised I responded, "No" and he said, "Well it should be a secret or else it isn't any fun!" and I said, "Ok! It's a secret then." To which he responded, "Good!" and left the room.
I did my presentation with 14 people present and it went very well. We reviewed Pascal's Wager, Schrodingers Cat, Burden of Proof, and the theists who were there said they learned a lot and we even had a calm discussion after the presentation! Least to say, I was very ecstatic. So when I went home I made posters for Atheist Club and it instructed people to go to Mr. V's class room after school if they are interested. Next morning, I started putting all the posters up and went to class, but after class I noticed all the posters I put up were ripped down.
Disheartened, I went through the school day and went back to Mr. C's room, in which I had the previous meeting, and asked him once again if I could have a meeting here. This time he said, "No, now that I know what you were doing in here." Was it just me or did he not want to know just a day prior? I didn't start a confrontation and just said ok, but I put a poster on a wall right outside of Mr. V's class (Mr. V had no problem with me putting up the poster on his wall). But once I went inside Mr. C ripped the poster from the wall and walked away.
Angered, the next day I made a charter for Mr. V to sign to make the club official, but he said he didn't want to do it anymore because he was getting a lot of flak from students. And just then a student came up and growled, "You're not actually condoning Atheist Club are you Mr. V?!" to which I sarcastically responded, "Yeah! You're not actually condoning those blood-sucking atheists are you Mr. V!?" The kid glared at me (I was wearing my shirt which said, "God is Imaginary" on the front) and walked off.
So after that little incident my friend (Whom I will refer to as Jesus from this point on, and no, this is not a joke) and I set out to find a teacher who would host Atheist Club. We asked 10 teachers total in just that day. The first seven we asked laughed and said no, while the last four said to give them a week to think about it. We gave them a week and went back and they all said no because they don't want to be hassled by Bible-thumping students, but two said they would let us use the class but they would not sign the charter (which really doesnt get us anywhere).
I go to the assistant principal's secretary, with Jesus and my brother Paul. The secretary handles the formation of clubs, and I told her I was having a really hard time trying to form my club. She asked what my club was and I told her Atheist Club and she shrugged and said "Well there you go." My brother asked her, "What the hell was that supposed to mean?" His statement echoed my thoughts exactly. She paused a moment and responded, "Well... You need a teacher to form a club." I just thought, "Wow you just saved your ass." So I scheduled an appointment to see the assistant principal to talk about my dilemma. By this time I was feeling VERY discriminated against.
The day after I made the appointment, we decided to ask some more teachers. That day we asked seven more. Five of them laughed and said no (And I must add, I really love it when you ask someone a serious question and they laugh right in your face before the answer) The sixth said he would have done it but he was retiring that year and did not want to do any clubs and the seventh said, "I am not an atheist, but if you guys really, really need an advisor, and if all else fails I can advise it for you." I told him, "Your altruism is greatly appreciated, but I don't want to force someone to sign a charter if they really don't want to do it."
I waited EIGHT DAYS before I told my dad to give them a call about my appointment, because I was becoming VERY impatient. The day after my father called I finally got in to see the assistant principal (whom I will call Dr. S from this point on). Dr. S said I needed to have an advisor for safety reasons (really... what are a bunch of atheists going to do in a class room? Sacrifice a chicken and pray to Satan?). I told her it was unfair, because I have asked seventeen teachers up to that point if they would host my club and they all said no. She said it is up to the teachers if they want to commit to a club and she could not force a club on a teacher. Which I agreed with, but they don't have to host it, we can just use their room, but she still said no. I told her how Mr. V was being harassed by students and I told her that was unacceptable and it should be the administrations job to handle those kinds of things. She said it doesn't matter and the responsibility is with the teacher. Feeling defeated I didn't press the issue further and went back to class.
At the end of that day, Jesus and I decided to ask four more teachers. Two of them did the characteristic "Laughing-No" as I like to call it, and the other two just said no (Which was a nice change of pace from the laughing). So now here I am. Emailing the fine people of the American Atheists. Begging for help. I don't want to have to take this to court but I feel I may have to. Any help is appreciated.
-Sincerely,
Tyler James Chalker
Been 3 days since I emailed AAI and AA but they still havent responded.
Here is a novel idea, if they want a Christian club they do it off campus. If you want an atheist club, you do it off campus. Just because the state is violating the Constitution by favoring them over you does not mean you should play their game. If you get a club, they still outnumber you. If all clubs are neutral then no one has to argue over who owns what and the majority cannot bully you.
The school should not be there to promote Christianity over atheism. Any club sanctioned by the school should be neutral and open to all students.
Raskolnikov The Learned
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:26 pm
Brian37 wrote:
Raskolnikov wrote:
This letter I wrote to Atheist Alliance International and American Atheists explains my entire situation.
Quote:
To Whom it May Concern,
Hello! My name is Tyler Chalker. I am 17 years old and I goto Silverado High School in Las Vegas, Nevada. For the past month and a half now I have been desperately trying to start an Atheist Club at my school, but for some reason it has been INCREDIBLY difficult.
I first thought of the idea in class while I was reading about the F.A.C.T. (Fellowship Among Christian Teens) club and I thought, "If they can have a club why shouldn't I?" So I went to my chess coach (Whom I will from this point on refer to as Mr. V) and asked him if I could have an unofficial atheist club in his room for a bit, he said ok and I set to work.
The next day I got about 11 students to come and I gave a presentation, but unfortunately I was constantly interrupted by other theists in the room who were there doing homework. So I decided to ask the teacher in the room beside my chess coach (whom I will refer to from this point on as Mr. C) if I could use it and he said, "Sure, is it a secret meeting?" A little bit suprised I responded, "No" and he said, "Well it should be a secret or else it isn't any fun!" and I said, "Ok! It's a secret then." To which he responded, "Good!" and left the room.
I did my presentation with 14 people present and it went very well. We reviewed Pascal's Wager, Schrodingers Cat, Burden of Proof, and the theists who were there said they learned a lot and we even had a calm discussion after the presentation! Least to say, I was very ecstatic. So when I went home I made posters for Atheist Club and it instructed people to go to Mr. V's class room after school if they are interested. Next morning, I started putting all the posters up and went to class, but after class I noticed all the posters I put up were ripped down.
Disheartened, I went through the school day and went back to Mr. C's room, in which I had the previous meeting, and asked him once again if I could have a meeting here. This time he said, "No, now that I know what you were doing in here." Was it just me or did he not want to know just a day prior? I didn't start a confrontation and just said ok, but I put a poster on a wall right outside of Mr. V's class (Mr. V had no problem with me putting up the poster on his wall). But once I went inside Mr. C ripped the poster from the wall and walked away.
Angered, the next day I made a charter for Mr. V to sign to make the club official, but he said he didn't want to do it anymore because he was getting a lot of flak from students. And just then a student came up and growled, "You're not actually condoning Atheist Club are you Mr. V?!" to which I sarcastically responded, "Yeah! You're not actually condoning those blood-sucking atheists are you Mr. V!?" The kid glared at me (I was wearing my shirt which said, "God is Imaginary" on the front) and walked off.
So after that little incident my friend (Whom I will refer to as Jesus from this point on, and no, this is not a joke) and I set out to find a teacher who would host Atheist Club. We asked 10 teachers total in just that day. The first seven we asked laughed and said no, while the last four said to give them a week to think about it. We gave them a week and went back and they all said no because they don't want to be hassled by Bible-thumping students, but two said they would let us use the class but they would not sign the charter (which really doesnt get us anywhere).
I go to the assistant principal's secretary, with Jesus and my brother Paul. The secretary handles the formation of clubs, and I told her I was having a really hard time trying to form my club. She asked what my club was and I told her Atheist Club and she shrugged and said "Well there you go." My brother asked her, "What the hell was that supposed to mean?" His statement echoed my thoughts exactly. She paused a moment and responded, "Well... You need a teacher to form a club." I just thought, "Wow you just saved your ass." So I scheduled an appointment to see the assistant principal to talk about my dilemma. By this time I was feeling VERY discriminated against.
The day after I made the appointment, we decided to ask some more teachers. That day we asked seven more. Five of them laughed and said no (And I must add, I really love it when you ask someone a serious question and they laugh right in your face before the answer) The sixth said he would have done it but he was retiring that year and did not want to do any clubs and the seventh said, "I am not an atheist, but if you guys really, really need an advisor, and if all else fails I can advise it for you." I told him, "Your altruism is greatly appreciated, but I don't want to force someone to sign a charter if they really don't want to do it."
I waited EIGHT DAYS before I told my dad to give them a call about my appointment, because I was becoming VERY impatient. The day after my father called I finally got in to see the assistant principal (whom I will call Dr. S from this point on). Dr. S said I needed to have an advisor for safety reasons (really... what are a bunch of atheists going to do in a class room? Sacrifice a chicken and pray to Satan?). I told her it was unfair, because I have asked seventeen teachers up to that point if they would host my club and they all said no. She said it is up to the teachers if they want to commit to a club and she could not force a club on a teacher. Which I agreed with, but they don't have to host it, we can just use their room, but she still said no. I told her how Mr. V was being harassed by students and I told her that was unacceptable and it should be the administrations job to handle those kinds of things. She said it doesn't matter and the responsibility is with the teacher. Feeling defeated I didn't press the issue further and went back to class.
At the end of that day, Jesus and I decided to ask four more teachers. Two of them did the characteristic "Laughing-No" as I like to call it, and the other two just said no (Which was a nice change of pace from the laughing). So now here I am. Emailing the fine people of the American Atheists. Begging for help. I don't want to have to take this to court but I feel I may have to. Any help is appreciated.
-Sincerely,
Tyler James Chalker
Been 3 days since I emailed AAI and AA but they still havent responded.
Here is a novel idea, if they want a Christian club they do it off campus. If you want an atheist club, you do it off campus. Just because the state is violating the Constitution by favoring them over you does not mean you should play their game. If you get a club, they still outnumber you. If all clubs are neutral then no one has to argue over who owns what and the majority cannot bully you.
The school should not be there to promote Christianity over atheism. Any club sanctioned by the school should be neutral and open to all students.
No doubt. Tbh, one of the main reasons I wanted to create the club was because of the fact that the school was allowing a Christian club. (I kind of wanted to see how far I could go with the Atheist Club and my school)
But the problem is finding hard proof that the administration prefers Christianity over atheism. You see, they say they would let me have the club if I found a teacher that would want to host it, but when I found a teacher to host the club, for some strange reason, the teacher decided not to host after talking to the Assistant Principal the next day (hmmmmm...?)
And, I was wondering, isn't the constitution limited to only federal government? Wouldn't this case be under State/City government?
IanfromPerth Newbie
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Posts: 22
Location: South East Asia
Posted:
Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:10 pm
A few months late, but kudos for having the balls to push this through and get your club. I wish you every success, and feel free to challenge the religious types to debate and prove their beliefs.
_________________ ----------------------------------------
hello from Thailand (atm)
Brian37 Master of Logic
Joined: Oct 04, 2003
Posts: 9384
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:28 pm
This is a dangerous game for non-Christians to play, not just atheists, but all who do not hold the Christian label. The problem is that Christians out number all others in this country, and if others demand PC laws, those laws can and will be used by the Christian majority to maintain their monopoly on government favoritism. The only way to defeat this attitude is not to demand the same venues, but to demand that all venues are neutral in regards to government.
Cygnus Graduate Thinker
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 550
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:49 am
Quote:
And, I was wondering, isn't the constitution limited to only federal government? Wouldn't this case be under State/City government?
No, freedom of religion applies to state governments.
Amendment 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
_________________ "Buddha says: "Do not flatter thy benefactor!" Let one repeat this saying in a Christian church: it immediately purifies the air of all Christianity."
Freedom of religion or more precisely, the Free Exercise Clause was applied to the states long ago by the Supreme Court. The same can be said for the Establishment Clause. Both were applied to the states in the 1940's or thereabouts.
Raskolnikov The Learned
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:32 am
PJS wrote:
Freedom of religion or more precisely, the Free Exercise Clause was applied to the states long ago by the Supreme Court. The same can be said for the Establishment Clause. Both were applied to the states in the 1940's or thereabouts.
I know that, but I was talking specifically about the Constitution original constitution.
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