Why Science is So Hard For People

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 81

infidelguy wrote:

1.) The Trinity is a being said to be a single being consisting of 3 parts, (Jesus, Yahweh and The Holy Spirit).
2.) A being is anything that exists.
3.) A being with intent, possesses a mind.
4.) A mind is recognized by a beings ability to possess thoughts, to plan, to desire, to reason, among many other things.
5.) At the very 'least', Jesus and God are beings that have their own minds.
6.) In having their own minds, they are separate beings.
7.) The Trinity cannot be one being.

Back again!
Here are my latest thoughts, this time strictly within a christian context.
I'll step back into my athiest shoes again at the end of this message.

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THE MULTIPLE MINDS ARGUMENT AGAINST THE TRINITY.

1. Yes, this is biblically correct. For christians any Old Testament references to god in the plural should be seen in the light of the Gospels and New Testament. O.T. Prophets like Moses and Elijah would have been unable (and unwilling) to accept the concept that One god is made up of three personalities. It was left to Jesus, Paul and the other N.T. writers to explain this. Nowadays christians can look back thru the O.T., knowing that where it says, "we" and "us" this is a reference to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Of course, using newer portions of scripture to understand older ones does lead to an uncomfortable problem for christians. Prior to Jesus' life and work on Earth only the O.T. scripture would have been availible for believers to read. So then how did they understand the plural references to the one and only god of Israel? Rolling Eyes

Go figure!

2, 3 & 4. Correct.
These points (describing what a mind is and how it operates) can be simplified or expanded as needed. I consider them to be essentially ok. The christian pov of what a mind is kinda vague. The most common approach I heard was to say that just as god is a triune being, so is man; having a material body, a mind for the governance of his body and an eternal soul/spirit. On the Day of Judgement our bodies would be renewed, clothing our spirits in a new flesh. Quite what role (if any) our minds would play in this is left unsaid. Will we receive new minds to govern our new bodies? Who knows?

5. Correct, but christians include the Holy Spirit as well.
As mentioned before all three members of the Trinity are considered to be "fully" god and are capable of co-operating as one or operating (apparently) independently.

6. No. (Explanation below)
Christians maintain that because God the Father is totally omnipotent, omnescient and omnipresent there can be no such thing as the Son or the Holy Spirit operating without his approval. Though god eternally occupies his throne in heaven his presence, power and knowledge are simultaneously and timelessly everywhere at once. Therefore truly independent action by any part of the Trinity is impossible.
Because they are not confined to one corporeal body (as is man) or spiritual body (as are the angels & demons) no physical, dimensional, cosmic or spiritual distance can ever separate them from each other.

In contrast Man occupies the physical universe of space and time, is born, dies and is severely limited in what he do, know and affect. He is a bit like an amphibian - existing in both the physical and spiritual realms simultaneously. When he dies his body decays but his spirit will sleep awaiting Judgement Day when it will be clothed in a new, eternal body.

All purely spiritual beings (not Man) have great powers and knowledge. While they are not affected by old age and death they still occupy specific locations within the spiritual and physical realms. God sent the angel Gabriel to announce to the Virgin Mary that she would become the mother of God's Son. When Gabriel was on Earth doing this he was not still present in heaven or anywhere else. This limitation is also true Satan, his demons and every other spiritual being.

This quality of being limited in thought, deed and presence is a major difference between them and the trinity. Another is the fact that men, angels and demons are created beings. A third is that god's nature is unchanging, whereas both angels and men can change. The proof of this is Satan's fall from grace and the potential for man to reject god (Eden) and yet still be saved by christ's death on the cross.

Therefore the Multiple Minds Argument might work when applied to a trinity of angelic/demonic beings, proving that such a fusion is impossible.
They have separate minds (identities, memories, thoughts etc.) , occupy different locations in the spiritual and physical universes and are subject to change. None of this applies to god. He is supremely qualified to be a trinity by having no such limitations. Separation just doesn't apply to him.
Therefore...

7. No.
The trinity can only be one being.

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Speaking as a Born-Again Athiest again...

So Reggie, it looks as if the christian model of the trinity does work. You say that the Multiple Minds Argument has worked in the past, right? Has anyone tried to refute it by pointing out the impossibilty of the three parts of the godhead becoming in any way separated?

Just to reiterate, I no longer accept any of this stuff. Even bad ideas hang together well sometimes. The ancient Greeks proved to themselves that the world is round via two different methods. This was then forgotten for centuries until the time of Christopher Columbus. For dozens of generations the idea of a flat earth looked unshakable and unassailable.
The fact that it was plain wrong could have been deduced if anyone had performed the same experiments and observations as the Greeks had long ago. Such is life!

Btw, I'm happy to clarify and expand upon any of the above. Yes, it's very long and wordy but sometimes that's necessary too.

All the best,

BornAgainAthiest.

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:23 am

my argument against the trinity: are you out of your mind ?

Ask anyone who believes in the trinity to explain it, briefly, as if to someone who has not heard of the idea before. I have found that even the most hardcore believers will smile and try and gloss over the silliness of it all.

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:06 am

BornAgainAthiest wrote:

Therefore the Multiple Minds Argument might work when applied to a trinity of angelic/demonic beings, proving that such a fusion is impossible.

When you're pulling ideas out of your ass (making shit up) almost anything is possible Laughing

This falls within the purview of fantasy (religion). It’s not difficult to make something “work” when you have at your command the unbridled power of human imagination applying itself to make-believe entities.

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:17 am

The reason my argument works pretty well Born is because the average believer loves to use the analogy of; my son being a part of me yet still me.. or they'll say.. your toe isn't you, yet it is you.

Once I show how minds by very definition pertains to individuals, it creates quite a bit of cognitive dissonance. Again, they agree with me up until they see the conclusion. Then it's a struggle to apply some ad hoc arguments to get around the problem.

"God can do anything" doesn't really fix it for then we can look into the how and what. If they agree that each entity has freewill and can make decisions apart from God.. this would simply be 3 individuals working together. If they say "No, it's all what God dictates and plans" then they truly aren't any more separate than my hand is, as distinguished from my body.

So.. I suppose the question could be asked. Is the Trinity one being with a single mind? or separate minds.

The Trinity sounds more and more like a Team, rather than one single entity.

In my face to face interviews with the average believer, the ones I wish to primarily address, the answer is usually, I don't know or One Being, three parts. But again, if they have minds, how can they one being.

I love to use this example.

If my hand had a mind and my penis (which it already does) has a mind. Are they the same as me, just different aspects? Or individuals with their own minds which are a part of my body? We'd be different beings, sharing a body.

Newbie First Class Joined: May 02, 2008 Posts: 30

In my Intro to the New Testament class that I currently taking, the early Christian sects struggled with multiplicity with just Jesus alone. Simply put the questions they asked were:

Is Jesus human? or is he God?
If he is God doesn't that mean there are two gods?
ect...

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:22 am

infidelguy wrote:

The Trinity sounds more and more like a Team, rather than one single entity.

This is the way the Jehovah's Witnesses look at it.

Confident Learner Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 71

Science is hard to understand because nature doesn't set up an educational system. Either the people do it or they set up stupid religions to confuse the issues.

they did the wrong one. Rolling Eyes

Now it has ot be undone starting with the basics.

Maybe these seven easy steps to create a theory for everything will help.

1. Create list of all scientific fields of study

2. Create list of all basic principles of each subject

3. Cross check all basic principles to make sure there are no contradictions

4. Create list of all intermediate principles of each subject

5. Cross check all intermediate principles to make sure there are no contradictions

6. Create list of all advanced principles of each subject

7. Cross check all advanced principles to make sure there are no contradictions

OK maybe it's not quite so easy however it will be a lot easier to do it this way than to do it in an unorganized way.

Even the basics are not always easy.

For example the basics of chemestry might be the table of elements. I never would have figured that out.

They had to go through a lot of research to figure that out and present it to the public.

I still don't know how to confirm it.

They need to do a better job showing the work and the public needs to do a better job stuying it.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 81

infidelguy wrote:

So.. I suppose the question could be asked. Is the Trinity one being with a single mind? or separate minds.

The Trinity sounds more and more like a Team, rather than one single entity.

Sounds like you're onto a winner there Reggie!

Btw, why not check this out?
Matthew 12:22-30 & Mark 3:10-27 & Luke 11:14-23
These all deal with the same incident. The pivotal phrase Jesus uses is, "No kingdom divided against itself can stand."

Here he's talking about spiritual matters but using the example of Earthly kingdoms so that those listening will grasp what he means. The principle remains the same, however.

If the trinity is truly divided into fully separate, independent individuals how can it then stand as one unified whole or kingdom? According to Jesus it can't! Try running that past any christians you talk with! Their responses should be interesting. Wink

Oh and I like what you say about the hand and the penis.

Try comparing that to what the apostle Paul says about the parts of the body (referring to the corporate integrity of the church) in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12, especially verses 15 to 22. Not 100% on the same wavelength, but still interesting.

Thanks,

Born.


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