(New) Logical Proof Against God?

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 16, 2006 Posts: 47

I don't know if this one has been done before exactly like this, and it needs refinement, but it may be somewhat convincing.

Argument from Perfect Teacher.

We assume God to be maximally great (perfect, omniscient, omnipotent) and wants a relationship with humanity. So, a Xian God at least, perhaps more.

1. A perfect teacher is able to teach any topic and make it understandable to any student. No mater how complex the subject, or how dumb or unwilling the student - a perfect teacher teaches to all, enagages all. To neglect ONE student is to be a flawed teacher.

2. God wants humans to know God, to learn of God and his ways.

3. Not all humans know God, or are clear about His ways. God has not taught His lesson perfectly or it would be clearly understood by all students.

:.Therefore, God is not a perfect teacher. But being maximally great this is impossible, so God does not exist.

Perhaps some of you guys could tighten it up a little, but I think the point is made.

I often get two different responses from Xians about non-belief.
1. You have to be willing to learn God message of Love, or some such thing. You have to have Faith before you understand Gods message and see that he wants a relationship.
2. You can't comprehend God's Plan (for example, why there is Suffering/Evil, etc.)

This Argument stops all that nonsense, since the Xian will put it upon the persons failings, sin or imperfection that we can't understand the Bible the same way, or can't know God's Plan (because it "would be like a Scientist explaining Nuclear Fission to a Dog")

But, we see in life that a good teacher can teach even the most challenged students. God would be a perfect teacher - better then that "Stand and Deliver" guy, and he taught the "dregs" when others failed - and so it's not our imperfections that limit us. It's the teacher.

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:19 am

I've thought the same exact thing before. There is no good answer, so Xians fall back on what they think they've heard in church. Im starting to think its pointless to argue with them. Its like arguing with a 5 year old. There views of the world are so juvenile and superstitious. Actually I take that back, there are alot of five year olds I'd rather argue with, at least they're inguisitive.

Newbie Joined: Feb 27, 2004 Posts: 16

saylok wrote:

IIm starting to think its pointless to argue with them.

I think it was E. O. Wilson who said something like, "All the logical, reasonable, proven arguments have as much effect as steel-jacketed bullets zipping through fog."

Just Arrived Joined: Jul 27, 2007 Posts: 2

architecto wrote:

Argument from Perfect Teacher.

We assume God to be maximally great (perfect, omniscient, omnipotent) and wants a relationship with humanity. So, a Xian God at least, perhaps more.

1. A perfect teacher is able to teach any topic and make it understandable to any student. No mater how complex the subject, or how dumb or unwilling the student - a perfect teacher teaches to all, enagages all. To neglect ONE student is to be a flawed teacher.

Hey if God is perfect then why isn't he the perfect chef? Why didn't we get a recipe for the perfect chicken casserole? Why do so many people make chicken casserole differently?

I hate to say it but your argument is kind of moot since Christ made his teachings difficult intentionally. Even his disciples were stumped! He never tried to make them understand, he never dumbed down his teachings. What, you think he was trying to come off as an elitist, or match wits with Aristotle? I'm no Bible scholar, just some guy who knows a little bit about his Bible, and even I can figure that out. I don't want to make assumptions that I shouldn't, but at the time Jesus had people trying to kill him for heresy and others that wanted to crown him as king of the Jews. In my opinion he wanted to stay on the DL, that would be why he picked the time in which he would let himself be declared king, and then let himself be killed. I have to think that he was cryptic in order to get those listening to him to check their writings and prophecies to verify the things he said in order to give him credibility.

Oh and rockyabq, your signature:

If theists do good things because of promises of salvation or threats of punishment, but atheists do good things because it's the right thing to do, who is more moral?

<edit>A common misconception, see our salvation is based on faith, not what we do. Our faith is displayed by what we do. Don't believe everything you see on TV and movies, they tend to misrepresent Christianity. I could believe what I do and lock myself in my house for the rest of my life, and I'd be all good. Doing good things is what we were taught to do in order to show our faith (paraphrased) "if you only love those that love you, what good is it? Even turds do that. If you only greet those that greet you, what are you doing more than others, even the atheists do that" We try to go above and beyond, show love to those that hate us.</edit>

Were atheist standing up for a church's right to free speech when they were picketing soldiers funerals? Were they helping that church even when every other church in the nation spoke out against them? Nope, they made that church the symbol for every other church out there. So go ahead, try to show me where the atheist organization outshines the Christian movement. Oh and don't bring up the singular event or the individual or a 500 year old screw up. It's easy to be a hypocrite in the church, I'm one myself, and it's easy to point out hypocrites when you subscribe to a belief that truth is subjective.

Graduate Thinker Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 777

http://www.topix.net/news/gay/2007/07/gay-artist-burns-rare-60-000-00-koran-to-eliminate-homophobic-hate-2/p4#lastPost

Lets take it for a test drive with some raving fundy fanatics! Aside from the above.

Newbie Joined: Feb 27, 2004 Posts: 16

thatsyourchin,
Feel free to quote back with a contradictory verse, but:
Mat19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
TV and the movies tend to misrepresent Christianity? Oh, you mean they misrepresent YOUR version of Christianity. There are SO MANY versions, after all.
As a hermit, you'd be "all good"? I thought you folks believed that no one is all good in this life. Ever. (See also verse 17 above.)
I have no idea what you meant by the "turds" comment. But as far as loving those that hate you, I've seen very little evidence of that in the real world. Heck, you don't even love those that disagree with you.

Just Arrived Joined: Jul 27, 2007 Posts: 2

I found this interesting. Matt19:17 KJV "why callest thout me good?" NIV "Why do you ask me about what is good?".

Difference in translation kind of make you wonder what he is implying. Makes me wanna check that out. Anyhow I believe that that exchange you referenced was a test of this man's faith, not his obedience of the commandments. Jesus said many times that it's impossible to follow them, that they were meant to make life hard. They are supposed to make one realize that they need more than just a list of rules.

As for the Hollywood version of Christianity, I don't count it as valid....it's Hollywood. Something like 85% of Americans say they are Christian, yet only 30% had been to church in the last 30 days. (I'm not saying church is a requirement, it's just indicative) So many people claim things because their parents went to church, they were baptized as babies, etc. The entire Bible screams salvation through faith, not deeds. The book of James is devoted to it. So many people believe what they do because it feels good to them. If I ask why they think what they do I get a response of "I just do" "I can't imagine God would be so mean". I never hear, "thats what I read in the Bible, it's what I heard in church. They make crap up, they believe truth is subjective. I actually blame the Catholic Church for a lot of damage. Heck just 10 years ago they finally admitted that Martin Luther was right, salvation is by faith. Whadda know.

(just to clarify my other post, "all good" meant good to go, A-OK, secure in my salvation. And the turd reference was short for me saying tax collector. They were the turds of their time. Jews collecting taxes for occupying Rome, fleecing their own people and keeping most of what was collected for themselves.)

Your last comment is right on! I agree with it! If you consider what I've been talking about, faith displayed by the good things we do. Then if someone treats you like crap you can probably call their faith into question. Your specific example may be a gray area, just because I'm sparring with you now doesn't mean that I won't fix your car for you if you can't afford to. (weird example, but it's one of the ways I help people) Keep this in mind, Christians are human, we make hypocrites out of ourselves every day. Some lose their temper, some cheat on spouses, some curse a blue streak. Mine happens to be that I drink too much, and I'm not ready to give that up yet.

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:50 am

Quote:

1. A perfect teacher is able to teach any topic and make it understandable to any student. No mater how complex the subject, or how dumb or unwilling the student - a perfect teacher teaches to all, enagages all. To neglect ONE student is to be a flawed teacher.

I have a problem with the first premise. There seem to be mental states (mostly biological deficiencies) which are incapable of learning certain concepts, regardless of the "quality" of the teacher. Of course, per the Christian worldview, one could blame that deficiency on their god.

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 16, 2006 Posts: 47

MockingGods wrote:

Quote:

1. A perfect teacher is able to teach any topic and make it understandable to any student. No mater how complex the subject, or how dumb or unwilling the student - a perfect teacher teaches to all, enagages all. To neglect ONE student is to be a flawed teacher.

I have a problem with the first premise. There seem to be mental states (mostly biological deficiencies) which are incapable of learning certain concepts, regardless of the "quality" of the teacher. Of course, per the Christian worldview, one could blame that deficiency on their god.

I know what you are saying. In the real world, we definitely find some people unable to learn certain concepts. I just have to wonder, though, for a Idealist, or perhaps Dualist, who believes we all exist because of the Consciousness of God, then the physical matter either doesn't exist, or is 'immaterial' to the discussion (he he). THat is, you may be thinking about the facts of the Material world and letting that interupt your ability to think as they do. (I'm throwing this out there - not to sound rude).

I'm kind of playing with some ideas that challenge Idealism, but, frankly, I suck at philosophy but am hopelessly interested in it.

So, in the world view of the Idealist, there is no matter to interfere with knowing God and we are all just "some kind of energy/chi/souls, etc. that are recognizable by a SEEMINGLY physical presence. That is, if there is something that limits us - its not genetic or physical, its the actual soul.

I guess I just came full circle to your point... #-o

Why would God do such a thing!! > Sad

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:15 am

Quote:

I just have to wonder, though, for a Idealist, or perhaps Dualist, who believes we all exist because of the Consciousness of God, then the physical matter either doesn't exist, or is 'immaterial' to the discussion

That's a very good point, I wasn't looking at it from that angle.

Confident Learner Joined: Nov 18, 2006 Posts: 67

A xian arguement to this would be "God sets the standards of perfection, so he will always be a perfect teacher."

If you retort with anything to this first arguement you'll get my favorite; "God works in mysterious ways."

I've said this before and i'll say it again. Kill all of the xians/muslims/jews. There is no point in trying to enlighten them unless they are children who haven't been stained with jewism in their mental developement stages.

Newbie First Class Joined: Jan 08, 2008 Posts: 31

Premise 2 is where you and I must disagree. I have no reason to believe that God requires Christians to understand His teachings perfectly in order to love Him. Heck, there are plenty of things I don't understand about my family, but I still love them.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:05 am

True ufc.. of course however, we can turn the argument to ask the xian, "Does God wish for us all to come to him?" Should be obvious at this point. Smile

Newbie First Class Joined: Jan 08, 2008 Posts: 31

infidelguy wrote:

True ufc.. of course however, we can turn the argument to ask the xian, "Does God wish for us all to come to him?" Should be obvious at this point. Smile

Yes, but loving Him does not require understanding everything about Him. If a person claims that humans must understand a sentient being perfectly in order to love that being, then they have the burden to prove that that is the case.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:51 am

Oh of course.. I wouldn't argue that. I don't understand precisely how my TV works.. yet I still watch it and trust that it will work when I cut it on.

I agree perfect understanding isn't a good argument.

One must wonder why God needs or wants love.


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