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Something does exist that is defined as being eternal and self-existent can we agree on that?
What caused you to change your position from this
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Ok, it is a place to begin. And definitions would be required. What does self-existent mean to you? What other kind of existant is there? And a definition of existant? And those are the only two requirements, eternal and self-existant?
to this
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No, I don't possess that knowledge. I can imagine eternal universes, but would have no idea if they were self-existent.
_________________ Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
romans120 Newbie First Class
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 44
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:17 pm
Brian37 wrote:
romans120 wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
romans120 wrote:
Raskolnikov wrote:
Quote:
Nice try dodging the burden. Please prove that the Universe is not self sustaining. I see it working just fine atm considering I still exist.
The first law of thermodynamics or The law of conservation Means energy is neither created or destroyed
the second law of thermodynamics or the law of entropy means that energy while not being destroyed is becoming less usefull. in other words the universe is winding down, which means at one time it was wound up and is not self-sustaining. (I'm sure you agree with me on this, I think your using the word universe in a broader way than I am)
I've never encountered the "Laws of theromodynamics" in the OT or NT for that matter? Do you have an original copy with those scientific laws in detail in ancient Hebrew, or Greek?
No, what you do have are hocus pocus claims. Claims of talking donkeys, talking snakes, sayters, unicorns, ghosts knocking up girls and zombie gods surviving rigor mortis after three days.
Tell me where in any credible scientific community today that the Laws of thermodynamics would support such superstitious claims?
Thermodynamics will not suport these comic book claims anymore than they would support the utterance of Harry Potter flying around on a broom.
None of those things have any bearing on my proposition. You deny outright or are biased because you claim I'm begging the question by not first proving the existence of God before I make claims based on His revelation.
I contend that God's revelation is the proof of His existence and the order and power of the natural universe shows us it is possible for Him to exist. The purpose of this thread is to debate the validiy of the "who created God" argument. my point is both theist and atheist must begin from a presupposition of an eternal or self-existent thing that is the source of change and motion.
Biblicaly speaking the root definition for God is "self-existent one" so we are not arguing over whether or not God exists but rather what His compsition is and whether or not God is intelligent
zzzzzzz......and might I add, If I may.......zzzzzzzzzzzz
This is just another ambigous hollow pontification to say, "I know I dont have evidence, but I will pretend I do, because the thought of being wrong might bruse my fragile ego".
The atheist does NOT start from a presuposition. The atheist compairs the best data we have to date to the claims presented to them. The "god" concept was not started with today's data. It was started by tribalistic nomads who were completely scientifically brain dead compaired to todays's advances. Unfortunatly , god belief is still popular, not because a deity is real, but because the idea is appealing to humans.
Read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.
Sooo are you going to prove your superiority by engaging my ascertion or just sit back and make unrelated comments?
_________________ Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Knight_of_BAAWA Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Mar 09, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: USA
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:54 pm
Romans, you got killed on AF. What makes you think you can do better here?
corynski Newbie First Class
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 29
Location: hills of east tennessee
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:23 pm
Romans120 said:
Quote:
What caused you to change your position from this
Quote:
Ok, it is a place to begin. And definitions would be required. What does self-existent mean to you? What other kind of existant is there? And a definition of existant? And those are the only two requirements, eternal and self-existant?
to this
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No, I don't possess that knowledge. I can imagine eternal universes, but would have no idea if they were self-existent.
Reflecting upon eternity and evolving universes I suspect. A fit of agnosticism perhaps. To claim knowledge regarding eternal anything seems dishonest and meaningless.
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Because the visible universe does not posses the atribute of eternality or self-existence so it must have derived it's cause from out side of itself (you and I agree on this one though you might not realize it)
The universe may possess the attribute of self-existence and I simply don't know it. Can you explain 'outside of itself?' How would you know about 'outside of itself?' Does something end and nothing begin?
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The universe - all that is obsevable is obviously not self-sustaining so we all search for meaning and existence beyond it's borders either spiritual or dimensional
Again, we simply couldn't know if it is self-sustaining or not, could we? We certainly don't need to create imaginary gods and goddesses to support myth and power. Religion is an anachronism.
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However, the sine qua non of God is that which is eternal (no beginning or cause) and self-existent (exists in and of and for itself)
It's the 'that which' part which has no reality to my mind. You imagine an invisable god, and give it a bunch of attributes exactly as humans have done for thousands of years, and claim it is real. It's amazing that after two thousand years people are still trying to convince others of this invisable deity that can't show up.
_________________ "All the propositions of logic say the same thing, that is, nothing." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
"Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language." -- Lugwig Wittgenstein
Nimitz Grand Poster
Joined: May 10, 2004
Posts: 2899
Location: OKC OK
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:23 pm
How about those Fucking Detroit Redwings? 41 10 & 4
Looks like they'll make the play-offs.
God I hate the Fucking Redwings!
The Avs have the best home record but their road game sucks. Don't think they'll make the post season.
The Stars and the Flyers have been on a hot streak, and keep you eyes on the Caps.
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Sooo are you going to prove your superiority by engaging my ascertion or just sit back and make unrelated comments?
Nope we're gonna talk about hockey!
And your assertions are unfounded.
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I argue however that in the case of existence it is impossible to deny a positive claim of one group without asserting a positive claim of your own.
Show us PROOF of your positve claim. It's nothing more than a naked assertion without proof. Do you have ANY evidence?
Raskolnikov The Learned
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 114
Location: Las Vegas
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:05 am
Red wings kick ass!
_________________ "I did not bow down to you, I bowed down to all the suffering of humanity."
- Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Crime and Punishment"
Mr_C Intern
Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Dallas, TX
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:45 pm
Hey Romans,
Even if it were logical to exclude the middle, steal the concept, and shift the burden of proof (or any combination fo those three), your argument doesn't bode well for the religion that you believe in.
What you have ultimately argued is the God of the Gaps. Even if this thing did exist, we would have no insight to its attributes, whether it is conscious, intelligent, omni-anything, etc. We would have no clue as to how IT began to exist, and this would lead to infinite regression. After Occam's Razor is applied, you're left with nothing at all.
Sorry, man. The argument probably sounded good in your head, but there's simply no valid or logical reason to believe in your God.
romans120 Newbie First Class
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 44
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:11 pm
Mr_C wrote:
Hey Romans,
Even if it were logical to exclude the middle, steal the concept, and shift the burden of proof (or any combination fo those three), your argument doesn't bode well for the religion that you believe in.
What you have ultimately argued is the God of the Gaps. Even if this thing did exist, we would have no insight to its attributes, whether it is conscious, intelligent, omni-anything, etc. We would have no clue as to how IT began to exist, and this would lead to infinite regression. After Occam's Razor is applied, you're left with nothing at all.
Sorry, man. The argument probably sounded good in your head, but there's simply no valid or logical reason to believe in your God.
Hey I'm just going off on what Brandon say's do you agree or disagree with him? This is what I mean when I say that "infinite regressions" are just philosophicle God talk. No matter what you always end up with a thing which by definition is God. If you can articulate a middle by all means please do.
_________________ Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Mr_C Intern
Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Dallas, TX
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:35 pm
romans120 wrote:
Mr_C wrote:
Hey Romans,
Even if it were logical to exclude the middle, steal the concept, and shift the burden of proof (or any combination fo those three), your argument doesn't bode well for the religion that you believe in.
What you have ultimately argued is the God of the Gaps. Even if this thing did exist, we would have no insight to its attributes, whether it is conscious, intelligent, omni-anything, etc. We would have no clue as to how IT began to exist, and this would lead to infinite regression. After Occam's Razor is applied, you're left with nothing at all.
Sorry, man. The argument probably sounded good in your head, but there's simply no valid or logical reason to believe in your God.
Hey I'm just going off on what Brandon say's do you agree or disagree with him?
Yes, I agree that you are stealing the concept to say that God can exist outside of the cosmos/universe, which you have said before. But if you have a thought on how atheists steal the concept, please articulate it.
Quote:
This is what I mean when I say that "infinite regressions" are just philosophicle God talk. No matter what you always end up with a thing which by definition is God.
No, an infinite regression is a logical consequence of your premise. If infinite regressions do not exist, then check your premise.
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If you can articulate a middle by all means please do.
Not my job.
Brian37 Master of Logic
Joined: Oct 04, 2003
Posts: 9768
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:08 pm
Nimitz wrote:
and keep your eyes on the Caps.
Huh? I was raised in No Va, and year after year after year after year, the Washington Crapitals, when they did make the playoffs, always choked. I doubt this year will be different.
BTW, how did this thread get on the topic of Hockey?
kmisho Grand Poster
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1678
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:18 pm
Quote:
I argue however that in the case of existence it is impossible to deny a positive claim of one group without asserting a positive claim of your own.
You're thinking about this entirely the wrong way.
To say that doubt implies a positive belief in the reverse turns being wary of scammers into a criminal thing.
romans120 Newbie First Class
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 44
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:54 pm
kmisho wrote:
Quote:
I argue however that in the case of existence it is impossible to deny a positive claim of one group without asserting a positive claim of your own.
You're thinking about this entirely the wrong way.
To say that doubt implies a positive belief in the reverse turns being wary of scammers into a criminal thing.
except when you say show me the evidence that God created all this you are implying all this happened by chance. To say all this is a product of chance is a positive claim that beggs the question of how. My point is no matter which you choose it will lead back to an eternal thing. You can sit back and make yourself think its dishonest to think about but in the end any meaning of life is only going to be found in pondering that question
_________________ Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
romans120 Newbie First Class
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 44
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:56 pm
Brian37 wrote:
Nimitz wrote:
and keep your eyes on the Caps.
Huh? I was raised in No Va, and year after year after year after year, the Washington Crapitals, when they did make the playoffs, always choked. I doubt this year will be different.
BTW, how did this thread get on the topic of Hockey?
Oh I think I make nimitz nervous so he always trys to change the subject. BTW the Avs are going to dig deep and get over their road woes and get the cup back where it belongs
_________________ Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Nimitz Grand Poster
Joined: May 10, 2004
Posts: 2899
Location: OKC OK
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:56 pm
If by nervous you mean bored to fuckin' tears, yeah you're right.
The Caps have been on a winning streak and just took 1st place in the S.E.
They've gone 7 and 3 over the last ten games. Have faith Brian!
But I don't think anyone is gonna stop the Fucking Redwings.
I'll never hear the end of it around my house.
romans120 Newbie First Class
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 44
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:31 pm
[quote="Nimitz"]
Quote:
If by nervous you mean bored to fuckin' tears, yeah you're right.
Yet out of all your other options on AF, RRS and here on IG you always seem to pop up in my threads. Admit it deep down your a Bible thumpin, praise singing, track distributing christain that would make Flanders look like a heathen.
_________________ Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
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