An Anarchist Revolution Or Nothing

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:21 am

corynski wrote:

Kmisho said:

Quote:

I am an advocate of a little bit of both at the same time,

True, I like to pick the parts from different systems and imagine if they could fit together. And I try to imagine what it would be like to have billons of dollars, and wonder how resistant I would be to corruption and the high life. Think of the temptations.

I think social contract like the Romans started, some free market for innovations and incentive to produce, and a socialistic structure of laws and programs. It's tough to imagine how to get the most freedom for everyone, and still keep greed and violence to a minimum. I think Jefferson and some of the other Founding Fathers were well aware of economic abuse through paper money and graft and favoritism.

We'll see what comes out of this latest economic convulsion; the poverty of the 20's brought out Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin, and throw in Franco too. Good grief.....

If it's bad enough, I see the same thing happening, unfortunately. Desparate people are the easiest for charismatic blowhards to hypnotize.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 15, 2005 Posts: 74

Capitalist dictatorship

1 – As a result of capitalism I suffer.
2 – As a result of capitalism you suffer.
3 – As a result of capitalism they suffer.
4 – As a result of capitalism animals suffer.
5 – As a result of capitalism the whole planet suffers.

Capitalism is a system of systematic violence of all against all.

Capitalism is a mass exploitation system that is designed to benefit the ruling few.

Capitalism is based on war and racism, Capitalism will have to go.

If we don’t destroy capitalism first, Capitalism for sure will destroy itself.

It has lasted for that long because of brute force and aggression.

The Capitalist system must be replaced with an anti-systematic anarchy.

Capitalism must go and with it goes the state, religion, money, etc.

Many anarchic trends will also disappear.

What must remain to navigate humanity out of the capitalist impasse is an anarcho-communist individualist anarchy.

Only this kind of anarchy can replace Capitalism successfully.

Billion of people suffer daily from Capitalism but only the few can recognize this.

Most sufferers believe that fate is the muster of destiny.

As long as Capitalism lasts, we are going to continue in our suffering and hardship, the longer Capitalism remains we will remain in constant pain and despair.

So, the fight is on, it is either we or Capitalism.

Capitalism is the worst economic – political system envisioned by man – it is the nightmare of humanity, it is the hell of history.

The Capitalist system with its various institutions and organizations is a very cruel and fatal system. It kills and impoverishes, it exploits and rules, it discriminates and abuses.

Most of the people on the planet are the victims of this system; they are in a very bad shape, mentally, economically and physically. To be born into Capitalism you are born to suffer the hardship the system is going to through upon you, unless of course you are born to the few rich – ruling families. But the rest are domed to a life of misery and hard labor for the rest of their lives.

An anarchic revolution will solve all that, it will liberate us from this labor camp called the state and law.

Capitalism is a dead end to humanity.

If Capitalism stays we are finished, but if it will vanish we will happily survive.

Revolutionary destruction of capitalism through anarchy

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

jfitz wrote:

"Any system that could mostly strip the competition element and maximize the cooperation element would hypothetically be more efficient."

parecon.org

- John

And why are we to believe that anarchy would maximize cooperation. The myth of anarchy is just as valid as the myth of the virgin birth. Anarchy has no real world sucess stories (Iceland was barely populated island larger than the state of New York when it went to crap and). There is no reason to believe that it's government that's preventing humanity from achieving perfection. Ultimately their is no reason to believe that the utopian dream of this anarchist is even achievable. The only way to ever prove or disprove the merits of anarchy would be to tear down our current structures and hope for the best. Likely, we'd find that anarchy does in fact equal chaos.

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:37 am

Sorry... for some reason I'm not getting email notifications of thread responses and I missed this one.

corynski wrote:

But I'm curious why you are afraid that 'any' system depending upon 'remuneration according to effort and sacrifice' is doomed. What do you perceive are the 'inherent flaws' of a capitalistic system?

Notice when you read my original post that I didn't say just doomed... I said doomed to the same inherent flaws. I think the basic flaw in all human developed economic systems is that they rely on the simplistic reciprocal principle of 'remuneration according to effort and sacrifice'. While I see this mechanism as perfectly understandable given the evolution of our social nature, I certainly don’t believe it is the best or absolute ideology, in fact, I’d say it is a more basic and simplistic appeal to our self appeasing nature, which has surprisingly work reasonably well. It seems to me a system that judges what resources are actually available for us to use and how many of us are in need of their use, employing some type of mechanism (including some form of rational population control) other then simple reciprocity, would be more beneficial to our long term survival as a species and a society.

It seems as automation continues to replace human labor and we loose the up until now necessary component of “sacrifice” only then will some new, hopefully more empathic and less reciprocal, social structure evolve.

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:24 pm

MrSmith wrote:

jfitz wrote:

"Any system that could mostly strip the competition element and maximize the cooperation element would hypothetically be more efficient."

parecon.org

- John

And why are we to believe that anarchy would maximize cooperation. The myth of anarchy is just as valid as the myth of the virgin birth. Anarchy has no real world sucess stories (Iceland was barely populated island larger than the state of New York when it went to crap and). There is no reason to believe that it's government that's preventing humanity from achieving perfection. Ultimately their is no reason to believe that the utopian dream of this anarchist is even achievable. The only way to ever prove or disprove the merits of anarchy would be to tear down our current structures and hope for the best. Likely, we'd find that anarchy does in fact equal chaos.

I don't believe parecon promotes anarchism. In fact, from what little I read on the site it promotes the direct opposite, not that I in any way endorse parecon. I can't see myself promoting any system that is basically just a morph or progression of the antiquated, reciprocal, monetary-based norm (basically any system that employs some form of capital as a synthetic bartering mechanism).

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 15, 2005 Posts: 74

The Equal Distribution of All wealth
Revolutionary Destruction of Capitalism through Anarchy

Capitalism is democratic fascism based on politico-economical dictatorship. Nationalism, religion and racism are the name of the game, very important for the continuous existence of this anti-human capitalist system.
An anarchic revolution on a global scale will bring an end to this vicious and brutal anti-social and anti-relation system, a very miserable system indeed.

The capitalist structure creates a class/slave society based on total discrimination and fierce oppression of a large portion of humanity. An anarchic revolution will terminate this overdue capitalist system, a rotten system that has destroyed the whole planet and everything on it for the sake of power, money and control.

Capitalism is an anti-natural and anti-social money-relation that brings only the worst of everyone and stimulates only the ugliest traits possible in a human being. The guilty are the capitalists and they must be stopped and all their wealth confiscated and distributed amongst the masses for the benefit of the whole of humanity forever.

Capitalist social-relation cannot be blown away but it can be destroyed and transformed into an anti-capitalist anarchic society through a worldwide anti-class revolution.
To all those who are reading this stuff: To which class you belong to? In which mentality are you imprisoned? What do you have to do every day in order to exist and just merely survive?

How can anyone be really happy and free under those circumstances? How can anyone be satisfied and creative under those conditions that we find ourselves in and all of the time and everywhere?
Anarchists know what I mean, and soon, they will be able to transform the anarchic theory into action, into a mass revolutionary social movement.

State socialism has been devoured by state capitalism, now it’s time to devour state capitalism and end this miserable episode in the human process and venture on to a post-historical anarcho-revolutioary creation. I am very certain, that soon, anarchists will spring into action all over the world starting of course in the industrial countries. Anarchists will succeed with help of the people in transforming the capitalist system into an anarchic society, via a social revolution aimed at the destruction of capitalism, the state, the class and thus terminating this horrendous social relation by changing society and freeing everyone in it.

May the next decade be the last and final decade for the existence of capitalism, gone and forgotten you may ask yourselves why anarchy? Because it is good for all, you may ask, why not capitalism? The answer will be, because it is bad for most us. You must decide where you stand with humanity and the planet or against them, for love, equity and freedom or for hate, war and oppression. By you changing and developing and through our own efforts capitalism will wither away.
Anarchy will bring back our lost humanity and rescue planet earth from utter destruction. Capitalism stimulates only the ugliest parts of human existence; it only encourages the worst traits in human Character, turning us to what we are today all acting as bankrupt shopkeeper in despair
.
You need lots of courage and knowledge to revolt against the system and change the whole world people included, this has to be done in our life span starting from yesterday.
So friends, let’s do it together, let’s turn theory into practice and action into theory and finish with capitalism once and for all.

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:52 am

This thread, though sparse, is very interesting. I like some of what all of you say. Particularly

Quote:

Likely, we'd find that anarchy does in fact equal chaos.

and

Quote:

I can't see myself promoting any system that is basically just a morph or progression of the antiquated, reciprocal, monetary-based norm (basically any system that employs some form of capital as a synthetic bartering mechanism).

and

Quote:

Capitalism stimulates only the ugliest parts of human existence

but there are disagreements as well

Quote:

Capitalism is anti-natural

No. Capitalism is entirely natural. It is employment of the naturalistic fallacy writ large, hence its animalistic tone.

A question to spartacus:

Quote:

The Equal Distribution of All wealth

Who is to do the redistribution?

I would argue that whoever it is, they ARE the state. You can't get rid of the state totally. For my part, I view the state/anarchy dichotomy as simplistic and false.

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:42 am

kmisho wrote:

No. Capitalism is entirely natural. It is employment of the naturalistic fallacy writ large, hence its animalistic tone.

I very much agree with this. Capitalism blends very nicely with our reciprocal (give and take) nature. We strive for balance and most of us like to be rewarded justly for our efforts. Capitalism, in spite of its many obvious flaws, works to reach this balance. It doesn’t always work fairly because our current systems are quite easily manipulated to favor certain individuals and groups (companies, states, etc.) over others.

I think my most basic complaint with capitalism is that it tends to reward secretive, compartmentalized cooperation among small groups that protect profits.

A system that encouraged global cooperation to solve our most pressing and fundamental problems would seem much more efficient. I don’t think this can be easily if ever obtained under current capitalistic models.

Newbie First Class Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 48

spartacus wrote:

The Equal Distribution of All wealth
Revolutionary Destruction of Capitalism through Anarchy

Capitalism is democratic fascism based on politico-economical dictatorship. Nationalism, religion and racism are the name of the game, very important for the continuous existence of this anti-human capitalist system.
An anarchic revolution on a global scale will bring an end to this vicious and brutal anti-social and anti-relation system, a very miserable system indeed.

The capitalist structure creates a class/slave society based on total discrimination and fierce oppression of a large portion of humanity. An anarchic revolution will terminate this overdue capitalist system, a rotten system that has destroyed the whole planet and everything on it for the sake of power, money and control.

Capitalism is an anti-natural and anti-social money-relation that brings only the worst of everyone and stimulates only the ugliest traits possible in a human being. The guilty are the capitalists and they must be stopped and all their wealth confiscated and distributed amongst the masses for the benefit of the whole of humanity forever.

Capitalist social-relation cannot be blown away but it can be destroyed and transformed into an anti-capitalist anarchic society through a worldwide anti-class revolution.
To all those who are reading this stuff: To which class you belong to? In which mentality are you imprisoned? What do you have to do every day in order to exist and just merely survive?

How can anyone be really happy and free under those circumstances? How can anyone be satisfied and creative under those conditions that we find ourselves in and all of the time and everywhere?
Anarchists know what I mean, and soon, they will be able to transform the anarchic theory into action, into a mass revolutionary social movement.

State socialism has been devoured by state capitalism, now it’s time to devour state capitalism and end this miserable episode in the human process and venture on to a post-historical anarcho-revolutioary creation. I am very certain, that soon, anarchists will spring into action all over the world starting of course in the industrial countries. Anarchists will succeed with help of the people in transforming the capitalist system into an anarchic society, via a social revolution aimed at the destruction of capitalism, the state, the class and thus terminating this horrendous social relation by changing society and freeing everyone in it.

May the next decade be the last and final decade for the existence of capitalism, gone and forgotten you may ask yourselves why anarchy? Because it is good for all, you may ask, why not capitalism? The answer will be, because it is bad for most us. You must decide where you stand with humanity and the planet or against them, for love, equity and freedom or for hate, war and oppression. By you changing and developing and through our own efforts capitalism will wither away.
Anarchy will bring back our lost humanity and rescue planet earth from utter destruction. Capitalism stimulates only the ugliest parts of human existence; it only encourages the worst traits in human Character, turning us to what we are today all acting as bankrupt shopkeeper in despair
.
You need lots of courage and knowledge to revolt against the system and change the whole world people included, this has to be done in our life span starting from yesterday.
So friends, let’s do it together, let’s turn theory into practice and action into theory and finish with capitalism once and for all.

I love this, it's great. When reading this replace the word anarchy with jesus and the word capatalism with satan and you'll see a very familiar argument. Turns out that anarchy is "good for all" (no evidence provided just a statment of fact) and "Capitalism is bad for most" (again just stated as if it was a universally accepted fact). Can't argue with that logic, but then again why would you? The world is never just going to decide to try anarchy for a while to see if it works. Short of a nuclear, biological or enviornment disaster that kills 75% of the worlds population, their will always be some variety of government. In some respects debating the merits of anarchy is like debating the exisitence of santa clause (yet I'm doing it anyway...I know).

Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 429

Humanity will always return to some state of government, no matter what happens. Capitalism is like instinct. The reasoning that makes up the roots of capitalism is basic and clear.

Quote:

Capitalism is based on war and racism, Capitalism will have to go.

Actually, when capitalism run by dishonest, evil people runs into opportunity it uses racism and war as tools to get what the bad men need. You're looking at the world and capitalism and taking them for face value without analyzing them.

What we need are restrictions that prevent the greedy men from taking advantage. We need government as a watchdog. If the world was honnest, we would not need a watchdog but it would still be capitalism. However, we need a strong government watching the corporations while protecting the rights of the people.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 15, 2005 Posts: 74

Capitalism is a Labor Camp

Capitalism must be dismantled and all the people set free. Socialism, the party, Marxism, the state, etc, are all done with and finished. What remains really is the hegemony of Capitalism and that must be destroyed also.
After the collapse of the Soviet-block, the Western-block will collapse. The whole existence of humanity is wasted and ruined by the continuous operation of Capitalism. Only few benefit from the ruin of the lives of the rest of us.
I have the right not to be a servant and I have the right not to want a servant either. What we want is an equally free individual without any shape and form of sub-ordination.
Without Capitalism we will all be rich, under Capitalism, the total majority of us will live a life of a servant, of a slave, of a worker. This must be terminated and the servants set free. In an anarchic society all are rich, no poor, and no oppressed, just free and equal individuals living in harmony with each other and in harmony with their surroundings.
Revolution Now

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:45 am

Cygnus wrote:

Actually, when capitalism run by dishonest, evil people runs into opportunity it uses racism and war as tools to get what the bad men need.

I wonder if it might not be that reciprocal systems, such as capitalism, aren't the cause of "bad men", rather then being the victim of them. Bad men aren’t born that way; they’re a casual relationship with their environment. And aren’t the “bad men” just the ones that expose and take advantage of the inherent weaknesses and flaws found within the system?

Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 429

I was exaggerating a little. But I still do not think that the system is the only thing that creates evil people. Some have a predisposition. Some are raised in a way that they may espouse a dog-eat-dog mentality. No matter what system is in style, somebody will try to take advantage somehow.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:28 pm

Cygnus wrote:

I was exaggerating a little. But I still do not think that the system is the only thing that creates evil people. Some have a predisposition. Some are raised in a way that they may espouse a dog-eat-dog mentality. No matter what system is in style, somebody will try to take advantage somehow.

I don't think the system creates evil. I think there are 2 other main factors.
1) The system itself has nothing that checks the action of exploiters. It is therefore attractive to exploiters. Any policing of exploitation must come from outside the system.
2) There is an element of what I'll call the evil of bureaucracy. Once the system is set up, it runs largely on its own almost to the point of having an independent will. The people actually running the bureaucracy only see their little piece. In this way, exploitative intentions can be divided between large numbers of people and become nearly invisible to even the participants. "The banality of evil." Think of the 1000's of German soldiers in WW2 whose main function was to do nothing but tell Jews to get on trains. They may never have personally done anything wrong and may not have even known what happened to the people they put on trains. This is a prime argument used against government itself. But I think it can apply equally to a business, whose job it is to make money and get big. The evil of bureaucracy is a constant threat.

Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 429

Quote:

Once the system is set up, it runs largely on its own almost to the point of having an independent will. The people actually running the bureaucracy only see their little piece. In this way, exploitative intentions can be divided between large numbers of people and become nearly invisible to even the participants.

Has anyone read Catch-22 by Joseph Heller? It has great examples of this quality of bureaucracy.


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