Bart Ehrman pwns IG

Newbie Joined: Jan 30, 2008 Posts: 11

pazuzu wrote:

Is it because most scholars are believers or is it because there is good evidence for jesus being historical?

I seriously doubt it is due to their religious beliefs. Even the majority of atheists and other non-Christians in the field at least seem to believe that there was a real person that the myths were based on.

Honestly, I think most of them believe he existed because they think the evidence is sufficient and that a real person who was mythologized is a more likely explanation. The standards of evidence in history aren't the same as they are in scientific fields. Historians certainly don't presume that a figure did not exist until it can be proven otherwise, especially since hard evidence like that is so hard to come by in history.

I don't know if he mentioned it all on the show, but I've listened to Ehrman's lectures before, and he seems to have some pretty good reasons to believe that Jesus existed. Is it hard, irrefutable evidence? No, but that really isn't a standard we find in the field of historical research for establishing that a person existed.

MockingGods wrote:

It depends on what you mean by historical. Could there be a person the biblical legend was loosely based upon, sure.

Personally, I'd say it is pretty likely.

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Is there any evidence beyond the bible that this person existed;

I've been having this discussion in another forum, and people seem to jump to a lot of conclusions, so let me just say at the outset that I'm not a Christian. Still, if Jesus was what most secular scholars seem to suggest: an itinerant preacher whose life was later mythologized, we really wouldn't expect much from other sources.

We do have evidence from his followers. Paul writes within a generation of Jesus's supposed life and seems to think of Jesus as an actual person who died recently. He claims to know his brothers, including James, who we do actually have non-Christian evidence of.

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No archeological, coinage, or substantial extra-biblical textual evidence exists.

Which is par for the course an itinerant preacher.

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We know nothing about this individual beyond the frankly mythological/legendary constructs of the bible, and that isn't history it's a story. So basically we have no real history for this person, even if he existed.

We do have some of his supposed teachings, which is more than we can say for most itinerant preachers of the era.

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All we have is a religious legend. To say what is portrayed in the bible is history (especially the Jesus story), is laughable until it can be confirmed with other evidence. It's no different then considering the Adam and Eve story or the Noah's flood story as historical.

It is laughable to take the Eve or Noah story as historical, but it is very different. We don't have multiply attested quotes attributed to Eve or Noah, or writings from anyone who claims to have known them even second hand, or a realistic historical context to put them in. Whether the evidence is sufficient may be debatable, but it is certainly more considerable than what we have for Eve or Noah.

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It was once a fringe position to say the earth was a sphere and not the center of the universe. One should also note it was the same religion that opposed that fringe position. Evolution was once a fringe position, now it's religious creationism that opposes it on the fringe, even if they're still mostly in the majority.

But the reason most historians accept the existence of Jesus is that they don't put a higher standard of evidence on him than they do towards other religious teachers with miracles associated with them. With people like Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad, the far simply solution seems to be that they were actual people who became mythologized. Perhaps that will change in the future, but if it does the entire discipline will be turned on its head. Historians don't generally require first-hand accounts from non-followers to substantiate the existence of figures with miracles associated with them.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:37 pm

SocraticCoaster wrote:

Still, if Jesus was what most secular scholars seem to suggest: an itinerant preacher whose life was later mythologized, we really wouldn't expect much from other sources.

Right, we have mythology, not history. If there is any history (concerning the man himself) found within the pages of the bible, it's impossible to separate it from the obvious myth.

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We do have evidence from his followers. Paul writes within a generation of Jesus's supposed life and seems to think of Jesus as an actual person who died recently.

Yet Paul only claimed to know Jesus as a spiritual being. I think it's likely it is with Paul the legend began.

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He claims to know his brothers, including James, who we do actually have non-Christian evidence of.

It's possible he was referring to these people in the common religious parlance of "brothers in the faith" and not in a true familial sense. James was a very common name during the time. Also, what evidence exists for James the familial brother of Jesus beyond the bible?

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Which is par for the course an itinerant preacher.

Or a myth.

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We do have some of his supposed teachings, which is more than we can say for most itinerant preachers of the era.

Supposed yes. I might add the many if not all of the supposed teachings of Jesus were ideologies that existed before Jesus.

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We don't have multiply attested quotes attributed to Eve or Noah, or writings from anyone who claims to have known them even second hand, or a realistic historical context to put them in.

Again, they are only attested to within the bible. It's no different then Eve saying, "Look, a talking snake". The same supernatural shenanigans exist in both accounts. Just because some of the Jesus story seems more plausible doesn't leave us with a history.

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With people like Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad, the far simply solution seems to be that they were actual people who became mythologized.

Certainly possible, but it still doesn't leave us with a "history" of the person. What most people accept as the history of Jesus is a religious myth. There's an important difference between a person existing and there being a reliable history for that person.

Newbie Joined: Oct 08, 2006 Posts: 11

alwaysthinking wrote:

I found that one pretty frustrating to listen to. It became an argument about the historicity of Jesus, and how Bart is so sure that Jesus was a historical figure (although of course not divine or any of that other nonsense). They spent a good 25 minutes back and forth about whether or not it was tenable to think Jesus was historical, and kept talking about the historicity of Paul of all things. While I agree with Reggie, that Bart needs to take a step back and look at the evidence and not just brush it aside as kooky, I wish Reggie hadn't harped on it so much and would have kept talking about Bart's book and the stuff they agreed on.

I was little taken aback when Bart Ehrman brushed aside Bob Price as a fringe contender on the matter (or implied as much). Oh well, sometimes discussions have a life of their own!

I somewhat agree.

I thought it was a case of mistaking each others point. I think Reg was generally saying that Jesus's historicity hasn't been established as a fact and Bart bristled a little and they both held ground at what the argument COULD have been.

It's a shame. Bart is definitely a good scholar with credentials. Price is great, but without the Provenance, he is always going to play second fiddle. (Personally, I think Price looks at the Bible in the right way: a mytho-historical document, and Bart does as well, but as a Religious document that he has recognized has had mythology, interpolation, etc. interjected.)

Reggie, can you ask him back to discuss his latest book regarding the problem of Evil? I would love to hear about it from a guy who knows that ins and outs of the actual Doctrine/Theology. (Most apologists seem to go straight for the "It's-Gods-Plan-though-we-don't-understand-it" gambit.)


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