Islamic Democratic Congressman Keith Ellison from Minnesota, wants a private swearing in ceremony where he will place his hand on the Koran.
Does Ellision know that The Islamic concept of government through Theocracy as spelled out in the Koran is incompatible with the American form of governing by a Constitutional Republic .
Why don't atheists ever speak out? Some atheist could make a name for themselves on this issue and educate the public as well. I also think it would be good PR for the atheist movement.
Why don't atheists point this out to Congressman Keith Ellison?
Last edited by madoba on Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Tormentor Confident Learner
Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 67
Posted:
Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:48 am
because there is no atheist religion, and thusly "the atheists" don't exist.
If there was some fellowship then someone would care, but guess what, no one does.
madoba Intern
Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 205
Posted:
Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:29 am
Tormentor wrote:
because there is no atheist religion, and thusly "the atheists" don't exist.
If there was some fellowship then someone would care, but guess what, no one does.
No but there are national athiestic organizations who could jump in the fray.
I think it should be an atheist that points out the absurdity of Congressman Ellisions action. The islamic concept of government written in the Koran is for a theocracy which america is not and the laws are written for an islamic society which america is not.
However what do you think would happen if an atheist congressman spoke out against Ellisons actions? would his comments be considered ignorant, xenophobic, bigotted or the Truth?
I think it would be the truth. I also think that christian congressman Virgil H. Goode Jr from virginia is speaking the truth when he essentially attacks religion when he criticises Ellison and his planned swearing in on the Koran.
National atheists organizations need to jump in bed with this conservative christian politician (politcally) and continue the attacks on congressman Ellision and educate the public about the abuse of religion in politics and at the sametime distance themselves from Virgil by denouncing Virgil's own use of religion in politics. I think an atheist could make a name for themselves on the national scene and start a new movement within politics.
But most likely it would be pollitically incorrect to support the athiest, at the expense of the truth, and he probably be branded a hate monger and a bigot.
It's just bugging me to think what would happen if an atheist congressman criticized Ellison's action? But since there is none I can't believe some atheists group has not decided to hop in bed with Virgil and support his attacks on Ellison and Islam and then turn on Virgil and expose his hypocrasy.
Tormentor Confident Learner
Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 67
Posted:
Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:55 am
this doesn't even matter
sjc Thinker
Joined: Nov 12, 2006
Posts: 423
Posted:
Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:07 am
madoba wrote:
Islamic Democratic Congressman Keith Ellison from Minnesota, wants a private swearing in ceremony where he will place his hand on the Koran.
Does Ellision know that The Islamic concept of government through Theocracy as spelled out in the Koran is incompatible with the American form of governing by a Constitutional Republic .
Why don't atheists ever speak out? Some atheist could make a name for themselves on this issue and educate the public as well. I also think it would be good PR for the atheist movement.
Why don't atheists point this out to Congressman Keith Ellison?
Many Christians, in the USA, want to turn America into a theocracy as well. To bring it back to Jesus.....
madoba Intern
Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 205
Posted:
Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:44 am
Quote:
Many Christians, in the USA, want to turn America into a theocracy as well. To bring it back to Jesus.....
Exactly, and now you get some ignorant muslim doing the same thing, only to have it pointed out by the hipocritical christian, so where's the athiest to call them both out.
Athiests could play both against each other while gaining political advantage but Athiests as a group are clueless when it comes to politics. How easy would it be to play each group off each other for your own advantage. The athiest is the voice of reason. Where is that voice of reason?
Atheists are spineless politically.
Or are they afraid of the Political correct police who will call them bigots.
hillbillyatheist Forum Master
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 10797
Location: oklahoma
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:08 am
I am with madoba on this one. swearing in on any religious text is a bad idea, and if atheists are crying over the bible then rallying behind the qur'an it makes us look bad, and folks will agree with ann coulter who says "liberals hate any religion except for islam"
Ivan_Ivanov Grand Poster
Joined: Jun 16, 2004
Posts: 1250
Location: Poland
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:22 am
hillbillyatheist wrote:
swearing in on any religious text is a bad idea,
Hm... not really. The whole idea behind swearing on something is to back the oath with something the person finds important. I know it's symbollic and it doesn't insure in any way that the person will keep his word, but I don't see anything wrong with it either.
This also brings an interesting question:
Why do Christians insist on people swearing on the bible, if the bible is completely worthless to anyone but them.
It's like they want to encourage them to break their oath.
It's like I said "It's the truth, I swear! If I'm wrong you can punch [insert the person you don't like] in the face!".
Quote:
and if atheists are crying over the bible then rallying behind the qur'an it makes us look bad, and folks will agree with ann coulter who says "liberals hate any religion except for islam"
Interesting, but I don't seem to recall any atheist complaining about people swearing on the bible. The only thing I recall is some complaining about beeing forced to swear on the bible, but that's a completely different thing, isn't it?
hillbillyatheist Forum Master
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 10797
Location: oklahoma
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:47 am
Ivan_Ivanov wrote:
hillbillyatheist wrote:
swearing in on any religious text is a bad idea,
Hm... not really. The whole idea behind swearing on something is to back the oath with something the person finds important. I know it's symbollic and it doesn't insure in any way that the person will keep his word, but I don't see anything wrong with it either.
well I am not going to say he CAN'T do it, I just think it's a bad idea. people seeing that then get the impression one must swear on a bible to be trusted. why not swear on our constitution instead?
Quote:
This also brings an interesting question:
Why do Christians insist on people swearing on the bible, if the bible is completely worthless to anyone but them.
It's like they want to encourage them to break their oath.
It's like I said "It's the truth, I swear! If I'm wrong you can punch [insert the person you don't like] in the face!".
this is part of the reason I think swearing on religious texts is a bad idea. seeing politicians do this has caused many to mistakenly think it MUST be done this way. if people swore on the constitution instead, that would be a unifying force as opposed to dividing us along religious lines.
Quote:
Quote:
and if atheists are crying over the bible then rallying behind the qur'an it makes us look bad, and folks will agree with ann coulter who says "liberals hate any religion except for islam"
Interesting, but I don't seem to recall any atheist complaining about people swearing on the bible. The only thing I recall is some complaining about beeing forced to swear on the bible, but that's a completely different thing, isn't it?
oh yea, the good folks over at american atheists Inc, (and others) are always fired up when politicians swear on the bible. you will see liberals jump at the chance to attack the majority (and many times they should) but then when its a minority, they walk on egg shells to keep from looking racist or un-PC. this makes them look like they just hate christians, and in this case, conservatives start thinking as ann does, that liberals (or atheists in particular) hate Christianity and love islam
Ivan_Ivanov Grand Poster
Joined: Jun 16, 2004
Posts: 1250
Location: Poland
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:57 am
hillbillyatheist wrote:
oh yea, the good folks over at american atheists Inc, (and others) are always fired up when politicians swear on the bible. you will see liberals jump at the chance to attack the majority (and many times they should) but then when its a minority, they walk on egg shells to keep from looking racist or un-PC. this makes them look like they just hate christians, and in this case, conservatives start thinking as ann does, that liberals (or atheists in particular) hate Christianity and love islam
Ah, in that case I guess I agree with you.
Tough if I answered Madoba, I'd say something more to the effect of "yup, I agree with you, the Koran should flushed right alongside with your motherfucking Bible".
nogods Grand Poster
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
Posts: 1508
Location: Middlesbrough, England, UK
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:39 am
Ivan_Ivanov wrote:
hillbillyatheist wrote:
oh yea, the good folks over at american atheists Inc, (and others) are always fired up when politicians swear on the bible. you will see liberals jump at the chance to attack the majority (and many times they should) but then when its a minority, they walk on egg shells to keep from looking racist or un-PC. this makes them look like they just hate christians, and in this case, conservatives start thinking as ann does, that liberals (or atheists in particular) hate Christianity and love islam
Ah, in that case I guess I agree with you.
Tough if I answered Madoba, I'd say something more to the effect of "yup, I agree with you, the Koran should flushed right alongside with your motherfucking Bible".
Well, you either oppse people swearing on religious texts, or you don't, but to pick one out for opposition is simply prejudice, as if the Bibler was any guide for liberal democratic government.
I am like Ivan_Ivanov, I cannot get worked up about this, if they want to swear on it, let them. I have been in trouble in court for refusing to swear before given evidence. As if, swearing over something, is going to be any proof of honesty. Eventully, I was allowed to give evidence, but the judge told the jury they need to remeber I am not under oath!
Fortunately, that did not stop the jury finding the gang of six homophobic pratts, who attacked me and a friend with a knife, from being found guilty.
- My friend was stabbed, I got two black eyes, and a badly bruised faced - the little thugs were hoping to take us to court for the injuries they received. Both I and Steve, were proud of the fact that we walked into ther ambulance, thet took us to hospital, three of them where helped into their ambulance -
I agree with the Bible on this point, what does Jesus say "Don't swear on anything above, or below, but let your yes be yes, and your no, be no."
But if people want to swear on bits of paper, let them. It all looks a bit harmless, but extremely silly nonsence to me.
nogods
MockingGods Philosophical Prodigy
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 4039
Location: USA
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:47 am
Either he should be allowed to swear in on the Koran or they should completely drop the idea of swearing in on any religious text. Not that I’d ever run for political office, but if I did, what would be the purpose of me, an atheist, swearing on the bible? It would be a completely hollow oath. How about swearing to tell the truth in court and invoking “God”? This would be another meaningless oath, as far as I'm concerned.
hillbillyatheist Forum Master
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 10797
Location: oklahoma
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:59 am
hey nogods, this question is for you.
would you be okay with a person swearing on mein kampf?
I have read the bible and parts of the qu'ran, and I find it disturbing that my leaders would feel the need to swear on either. I am not saying I would force them not to (even mein kampf for that matter) but I do not like it nor do I consider it completely harmless. if people wish to swear on something why not the foundation of our country and what holds us together, which is our constitution.
*edited to fix typo I just noticed.
Last edited by hillbillyatheist on Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
CET Master of Logic
Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 5636
Location: SoCal, USA
Posted:
Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:56 pm
madoba wrote:
Does Ellision know that The Islamic concept of government through Theocracy as spelled out in the Koran is incompatible with the American form of governing by a Constitutional Republic .
Sort of like the theocracy spelled out in the bible?
_________________ "Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Shakyamuni Buddha
Gerard Grand Poster
Joined: Nov 19, 2003
Posts: 1741
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
Posted:
Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:06 am
nogods wrote:
Ivan_Ivanov wrote:
hillbillyatheist wrote:
oh yea, the good folks over at american atheists Inc, (and others) are always fired up when politicians swear on the bible. you will see liberals jump at the chance to attack the majority (and many times they should) but then when its a minority, they walk on egg shells to keep from looking racist or un-PC. this makes them look like they just hate christians, and in this case, conservatives start thinking as ann does, that liberals (or atheists in particular) hate Christianity and love islam
Ah, in that case I guess I agree with you.
Tough if I answered Madoba, I'd say something more to the effect of "yup, I agree with you, the Koran should flushed right alongside with your motherfucking Bible".
Well, you either oppse people swearing on religious texts, or you don't, but to pick one out for opposition is simply prejudice, as if the Bibler was any guide for liberal democratic government.
I am like Ivan_Ivanov, I cannot get worked up about this, if they want to swear on it, let them. I have been in trouble in court for refusing to swear before given evidence. As if, swearing over something, is going to be any proof of honesty. Eventully, I was allowed to give evidence, but the judge told the jury they need to remeber I am not under oath!
Fortunately, that did not stop the jury finding the gang of six homophobic pratts, who attacked me and a friend with a knife, from being found guilty.
- My friend was stabbed, I got two black eyes, and a badly bruised faced - the little thugs were hoping to take us to court for the injuries they received. Both I and Steve, were proud of the fact that we walked into ther ambulance, thet took us to hospital, three of them where helped into their ambulance -
I agree with the Bible on this point, what does Jesus say "Don't swear on anything above, or below, but let your yes be yes, and your no, be no."
But if people want to swear on bits of paper, let them. It all looks a bit harmless, but extremely silly nonsence to me.
nogods
Nogods, weren't you allowed to make a non-religious affirmation? It seems odd that you weren't allowed that. I thought it was customary in the US.
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