Is Xmas just sentimental overdrive? What do you think?

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:43 pm

I sat at my piano today and played a few tunes of old… Sad

{|= . … and I decided to play some Christmas songs, and practice a few before Xmas as I have family coming over this year. Then I thought………

Wait, what am I doing? I don’t believe in this stuff, yet how can I not play Silent Night, Holy Night? It’s just not the same without the Xmas songs. We are going to have a nice small family evening. We celebrate Xmas Eve, as we do in Europe, (I grew up in a German family and was born there). I love the evening tradition, rather than Xmas morning. We have a nice cozy dinner, with lots of candles spread around, burning incense and light background music. Probably will play the Mormon Tabernacle Choir CD, they sound so good. Then there’s the Bing Crosby, White Xmas…. Yes, I still like that…yet all the time I am reminding myself that I don’t believe this stuff.

Sometimes I get mad because, these songs/traditions have been so ingrained into us through-out our lives, that we don’t have anything else do we? I mean, what songs should we sing at this time of year? If it is the Winter Solstice we are celebrating, then why didn’t they sing songs about that? Or did they sing at all, and if so then what? Has there ever been any research done about this?,

Sometimes the “reality” of being an atheist hits home at times like these. There is a tendency to think, all this religious stuff ain’t so bad in the right context, "once a year" yet, I remain a staunch atheist.

Even my own parents who didn’t go to church, had us all singing Christmas songs. The German songs talk about a Christ Child, coming on Xmas Eve and brings the presents. How ridiculous is that?
Yet we loved it. It was exciting. Our parents also didn’t put up the tree until right before dinner, so we all huddled in the kitchen and had to wait till the tree was up. If we dared look, or peek in, then the Christ Child would render you blind. Nice eh? Still we never really believed it.

The presents weren’t wrapped but just lay there under the tree, (my parents could barely afford the presents let alone the paper to wrap them in) and oh the excitement. Then a few Xmas songs were sung, dinner, candles and the excitement of all the new toys and presents.

Yet, what is it really all about?

This year, it’s about my family being together for another year. Being grateful for our health, our friendships and love. Do we need to sing though? Aahh… well, it would be nice wouldn’t it? But if we sing any other song about love and friendship, the tunes just don’t fit with the occasion!

What do you guys think? Is there a need for us to get sentimental once a year? Sing songs, and feel a little “in the spirit of things?”..I think so.

What is it about Xmas that sends us into sentimental overdrive?

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:45 pm

Quote:

What do you guys think? Is there a need for us to get sentimental once a year? Sing songs, and feel a little “in the spirit of things?”..I think so.

What is it about Xmas that sends us into sentimental overdrive?

Well I think you explained it when you went into what your family did years ago...it's tradition, and humans are suckers for tradition.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:53 am

I kind of think the same thing as you about Christmas. We definitely have our traditions which include going to church, comin' home and havin' snack (cheese, crackers, and liverwurst - which really is God's food), then sitting in the living room and putting the star on the tree, which is a tradition we started where we say stuff like "at the same time in the future when we're separated, we'll all know that the family is doing the same thing", and then goes into the christmas story about Jesus' birth and stuff. I may not believe it, but it's the only time our family gets together in the whole year now that everyone is off working, and in my case university. It's nice to stick with tradition for your families sake, not doing so would cause a rift that's far worse than singing songs you don't believe in.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:48 am

Rituals and stories are extremely important to human beings. We are not primarily 'rational' beings, no matter how vitally important is our ability to think rationally when faced with real world problems.

Satisfying our emotional needs is essential.

Songs, like poetry, are not required to be about mundane reality. They may encapsulate some deeper truth about the way we interact, the things that 'matter' to us, but not really essential, IMHO. Music in particular doesn't have a 'real' referent, it works its magic in a different way, and words may sometimes have a related effect, where the patterns in poetry or the lyrics of a song are another form of music. People can still get pleasure singing or listening to a song in a foreign language that they don't understand.

Celebrations to mark the passing of the darkest part of winter, that the sun was returning and the days had started to lengthen again were important in the northern latitudes. 'Logically' we in the southern hemisphere should celebrate this in June, but by the time Europeans reached here, the original basis of this feast had long been overlaid by several successive traditions, like the Roman Saturnalia and then the Christian co-option of the old holiday, including all the old trappings like exchange of gifts.

I heard of someone who studied the traditions of Xmas and identified only one that was uniquely Christian, I think it might have been the mid-night mass. Virtually all the others, the gift exchange, the Tree, could be traced to older traditions.

So just think of the idea that you are partaking in a ritual with a very long history, that links us to other people across many millenia.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:37 am

BobSpence1 wrote:

So just think of the idea that you are partaking in a ritual with a very long history, that links us to other people across many millenia.

Wow BobSpence1, that was really good. Your whole thread, but the end is what got me the most. I never thought of it that way. These words have lifted my dilemma.

I do not want to appear as a hypocrite, because I am truly an atheist, but these last words of yours have cleared my mind. Thank you. It makes so much sense now. I can now enjoy my Xmas songs on the piano without having to think that I actually believe the words, whereas, I am only repeating a millenia of tradition, a tradition I rather like.

All my family don't go to church, especially midnight mass, so we really are just repeating a tradition, and it's not a bad one that brings family together once a year, exchange gifts, mainly for the excitment of opening a present etc.. the food, the wine, the good company.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:52 am

sunamiren wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

So just think of the idea that you are partaking in a ritual with a very long history, that links us to other people across many millenia.

Wow BobSpence1, that was really good. Your whole thread, but the end is what got me the most. I never thought of it that way. These words have lifted my dilemma.

I do not want to appear as a hypocrite, because I am truly an atheist, but these last words of yours have cleared my mind. Thank you. It makes so much sense now. I can now enjoy my Xmas songs on the piano without having to think that I actually believe the words, whereas, I am only repeating a millenia of tradition, a tradition I rather like.

All my family don't go to church, especially midnight mass, so we really are just repeating a tradition, and it's not a bad one that brings family together once a year, exchange gifts, mainly for the excitment of opening a present etc.. the food, the wine, the good company.

Thank you - it gives me to great pleasure to know that my contributions have helped someone that way.

I do get annoyed when Theists try to deny that Atheists can have 'real' spiritual feelings....

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:09 am

Hey Bob, you are in Brisbane like me, I am on Mt Tamborine, and it's a beautiful day today, bit windy though.

Yes, I agree with you, Theists try to deny that we can have "real" spiritual feelings. IMO, spiritual feelings are just that, feelings, and really has nothing to do with sprituality. It's a bit like religion. You feel it, only they "believe it" as well or add some kind of "religious faith".

I feel spiritual when I see the fog surrounding my house, and the sun comes through the mist and shines through onto my garden. (My back yard runs onto the National Forest). I just love that, and I can "feel the spiritual-ness" if that's a word, of the whole peaceful scene. It's a feeling that's all.

To be spiritual and add the supernatural, is what the theists have made spirituality to mean.

Sometimes I even talk about, thinsg like, "music is good for the soul"... by that I also mean, it "feels good in the inner self"... to hear certain pieces of music, because the music itself makes you feel either happy, sad or melancholy, whatever the song may be to you, and I call it the soul.

A theist would then jump on me and ask: "so you do believe in a soul"..... aagghh.... not what you call a soul my friend.

I don't believe we have a soul, so we are short of words to describe our spirituality, our soul, our inner feelings, without the theist adding the supernautral.

How can we get out of this and what do you think? Confused

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:34 am

sunamiren wrote:

Hey Bob, you are in Brisbane like me, I am on Mt Tamborine, and it's a beautiful day today, bit windy though.

Yes, I agree with you, Theists try to deny that we can have "real" spiritual feelings. IMO, spiritual feelings are just that, feelings, and really has nothing to do with sprituality. It's a bit like religion. You feel it, only they "believe it" as well or add some kind of "religious faith".

I feel spiritual when I see the fog surrounding my house, and the sun comes through the mist and shines through onto my garden. (My back yard runs onto the National Forest). I just love that, and I can "feel the spiritual-ness" if that's a word, of the whole peaceful scene. It's a feeling that's all.

To be spiritual and add the supernatural, is what the theists have made spirituality to mean.

Sometimes I even talk about, thinsg like, "music is good for the soul"... by that I also mean, it "feels good in the inner self"... to hear certain pieces of music, because the music itself makes you feel either happy, sad or melancholy, whatever the song may be to you, and I call it the soul.

A theist would then jump on me and ask: "so you do believe in a soul"..... aagghh.... not what you call a soul my friend.

I don't believe we have a soul, so we are short of words to describe our spirituality, our soul, our inner feelings, without the theist adding the supernautral.

How can we get out of this and what do you think? Confused

I agree that there are problems with word 'spiritual', but we obviously both know the sort of feelings we are referring to when we use the word. Possibly the sense of the 'numinous' that our great Australian atheist Phillip Adams likes to talk about here...

Dunno how we come up with satisfying new words, to describe how we think about these things. Until then we just have to turn the Theists tactics back on them - if they can use the word faith, which has a perfectly acceptable meaning as a stronger form of 'trust' or 'hope', to refer to blatant self-deception, IOW that 'I believe because I believe', then we can use words like spiritual and soul in a more abstract and/or subtle sense...

Yep cool and breezy here. Another excuse to put off getting my air-conditioner fixed so I can continue to work thru summer without sweating over everything, having the color printers I work with having to handle limp sheets of paper as the humidity seeps in.

I must get up to Tamborine and other areas like O'Reillys and Springbrook, Beechmont, etc to do some walks and photography now that I have a really good camera setup.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:50 am

Thinking about the weather here and the contrast with the northern hemisphere Xmas reminded of my one memorable White Xmas, xmas lunch in a cottage in a village on the shores of Lake Baikal in Siberia, serenaded by Russian folk songs and balalaikas, as temperature outside hovered around -20C....

Weird weather just at the moment in Australia of course, with snow falling down to 500 meters in Victoria... just saw some footage on TV.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:03 am

BobSpence1 wrote:

Thinking about the weather here and the contrast with the northern hemisphere Xmas reminded of my one memorable White Xmas, xmas lunch in a cottage in a village on the shores of Lake Baikal in Siberia, serenaded by Russian folk songs and balalaikas, as temperature outside hovered around -20C....

Weird weather just at the moment in Australia of course, with snow falling down to 500 meters in Victoria... just saw some footage on TV.

Yes, I like Phillip Adams too, have to start listening to him again.

The snow in the Dandenongs was a bit wierd. I used to live there and once had a bout of snow many years ago, in Mt Evelyn.
I have never had a "white Xmas"... something I am still working on. Either have to go to England or Europe for that though! Laughing

I like your sober way of thinking.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:40 am

i'm pretty much a grinch around christmas, does it have to be every year? can't it be like every 10 years or something?

however i'm all for celebrating MY birthday at least 12 times per year.

hm.. the 22nd of every month. ok sounds good.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:44 am

Skylar wrote:

i'm pretty much a grinch around christmas, does it have to be every year? can't it be like every 10 years or something?

however i'm all for celebrating MY birthday at least 12 times per year.

hm.. the 22nd of every month. ok sounds good.

Oh you're such a baby!! Wink

If you also had Xmas every year, you would even get more presents!!

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:50 am

I've always wanted to go to the fatherland for xmas. Being a German-American it has a special appeal for me. The closest thing I have around here is a German deli that sells gingerbread houses for the holidays. Laughing

I went to Germany twice while I was in the navy but both times during the summer months.

Oh well at least I can get a real blood and tongue samich and listen to the little old ladies behind the counter speak German.

How you feeling these days Sunamiren?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:33 pm

Nimitz wrote:

How you feeling these days Sunamiren?

I'm doing just fine thanks Nimitz. Not so dizzy anymore, and able to drive my car again. Just a bit off balance now and then, while walking or gardening. I am lucky that I recovered this well.

Nimitz, you are an American/German? Like I'm an Australian/German! I have been to Germany for a whole year, and never saw snow except in the Austrian Alps where we went ski-ing. But never had a white Xmas. I hope to do that before I die, at least once.

Do you know where from Germany your parents came from? I was born in Darmstadt. I just love the German butchers, the smell of all that wonderful sausage when you walk in... have you ever experienced this? The Deli's are pretty good too. You are lucky to have one near you.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:23 pm

I'm 3rd generation German-American. It's an American thing I guess. We still identify with our native past. Irish-American, African-American, ect. no matter how many generations ago. Germans are one of the largest immigrant groups in America. My family came from the Harz Mountain area is all I really know.

Wilhelmshaven and Bremerhaven are the two towns I went to back in the 70's.

There's a German butcher shop in my wifes home town in Ohio. (she's german -american too) We always bring back bratworst from there when we're on vacation. It's made at the shop and it's worth killing for! Laughing

Xmas here is just a buying spree. The stores are packed. The roads are packed. It's never a white xmas in Oklahoma. Too far south. I remember telling someone here about going for a toboggan ride at xmas. They didn't know what a toboggan was. Laughing

(it's a canadian style sled)

I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and it was almost always a white xmas. Sometimes a white Halloween! People had huge evergreen trees with lights in their yards covered in snow. All the rooftops would be white. *sigh*
It felt more like xmas then.

Yeah xmas is hyped out. If there really was a jeebus, I think he'd slap the shit outta most xmas shoppers. BUY BUY BUY

Xmas depresses me most of the time. I'm a yankee and an atheist down south. A fish out of water twice .

Glad you're feeling better.


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