Its happened

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:33 am

I knew one day this would come into play, just didn't think it would be this early. Religion, my wife, my kids, and me. I have 2 kids, one 7 and one 4. I always knew one day we would have to either teach them or have them ask questions. Well yesterday my 7 year old was asking about ghosts or something and I said ghosts are not real. He said yes they are, mommy said they are "lost souls". My wife is into metaphysics, so she says, but she is really just what ever religion her mom is. She says she believes in God, dislikes christians, doesn't believe in the bible at all. She has no idea what metaphysics is really she just hears things from her mom and goes with it.

At any rate she is influencing our kids. We briefly talked about this before, she hates that I am an atheist. She doesn't want me to teach them anything about atheism what so ever. She says, and said last night, its terrible that someone can believe in nothing. That you just rot in the ground and have no soul. How depressing is that!?! I want my kids to believe in a soul...etc

Now I am sure just by what little info I have said about the situation you can pick up on why my wife is not an atheist. She wants to believe in something after death to comfort her. I tell her all the time you feel nothing, know nothing..etc when you are dead anyway so whats the difference?? I don't care about figthing or arguing with my wife on religious issues but when it comes to my kids I want them to grow up different. I would like them to come to whatever they choose on their own. Even if it ment that they were hardcore
christers that would be fine, as long as it was found by them and no one of us had more influence.

So basically what should I do? I told her last night please don't influence the kids, you wouldn't like me to do it would you? She said of course not...blah blah. We "kind of" made an agreement not to influence them either which way. I told her if they ask questions you need to go find out on your own. Is that a good idea? There are 1 of 2 ways I can think of doing it. One being if they ask like what is god? I can say well there are some people who think there is someone in the sky who made us and this and that, or I can just say you have to find out on your own.

I usually would go about this another way than asking you guys but I so value your opinions and I am sure you have been through this before. My wife also mentioned to me " I wish atheism had never came into our relationship". She has NO idea what atheism really is and how simple it is. Kind of my fault because I only show her anti-christian things and she thinks all atheists are mean and full of hate. But sorry for such a long post, this matter is very important to me.

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:40 am

BlasphemousMusic wrote:

So basically what should I do?

"Plant" questions into their heads.
Questions like, "What are souls and ghosts made of?", "How do they move around?", "Do they make sound and how?", "Why are they always floating around at ground level and do not sink towards the center of the earth?", "Why are they hanging around our solar system and not going to the great land in the sky?" etc, etc, Very Happy

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:30 am

a good idea but being 7 I don't think he would really understand that. We also agreed not to influence them with our beliefs at all so I try to stray from all questions if possible. But I suppose if my wife (and no doubt my mother in law) are planting ideas I should plant questions with that. Would be funny on my end to see my kid ask his mommy well if there are ghosts and lost souls (insert good question here). She'd know it was me but spose he should be skeptical of everything without evidence no matter what it may be.

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:03 am

Teach your kids to think critically, to look for evidence when considering ideas. Teach them the scientific method. There are books that are age appropriate that do these things.

Expose them to museuums when they are old enough to enjoy them. Emulate wonder and the joy of learning about the world. You can not completely avoid "influence" but you can stress the methods, the achievements, and the inspiring history of science. There are great stories in the history of discovery that can be told to young children. There are hands on exhibits,science oriented tv shows,toys,etc.

Your kids are going to be exposed greatly to superstitions and sloppy thinking in many varieties-in and out of the home. You can,perhaps, provide something of a base and a role model .

When in doubt ask WWSD? What would Sagan do? Very Happy

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:38 am

great ideas! I never thought of it that way. Not really an influence on my part but teaching them to use critical thinking skills by showing them things.

Gonna be a long hard fought battle between me and the mother in law but if i could possibly show my wife atheism is simple and everyone is not mean and such it would be an easier discussion when it arises.

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:32 am

I would encourage you to discuss atheism with your wife, so she may better understand your perspective on things. I know when I met my wife I was a new ager myself, she was a weak christian. Over the years she saw my deconversion and we spoke in depth through it all. So she has a good idea on what atheism is and isn't. I think both of you should share your views to your children and discuss it openly with them. Because if you avoid those questions, they will just get the answers elsewhere.

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:23 am

She wants nothing to do with it and its hard to talk to her about it. She doesn't want to believe she will rot in the ground and there is no comfort after death. I will try showing her how she herself is an atheist all ready, and like the quote says, I just go one god further.

I asked her about things like how do you know about your god. What doctrines do you follow, if any, and how do you know what your god wants. So basically she doesn't have a clue and its based of off the bible god. She makes the bible god to her liking, much like a lot of christians do, and believes what ever her mom tells her about it. I will give it another go with her but as far as the kids go it wouldn't be good because we (my wife and I) would fight about it infront of them.

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:30 am

The best thing my dad ever did for me was to just have a large library that I could read from as I chose without goading.

At the young age of your kids it's not really much of a problem. It becomes a problem later when childish credulousness becomes adult gullibility followed by mature victim of a scam.

That's the way I look at Healthy Scepticism. When somebody makes a wild claim, one can train onesself to think "that doesn't sound right" rather than swallow hook line and sinker. Doubt should habitually precede acceptance as form of self-defense.

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:52 am

You guys need marriage counseling RIGHT NOW.

With all due respect, it sounds like you have serious marriage problems. She can have her opinions and beliefs, but yours are disrespected? You guys don't sound like you're aligned on how you're going to raise your kids. It sounds like you guys are undermining each other and that's going to lead to a bad break up unless you guys can agree on how to raise the kids. Notice I didn't say that it "might" lead to a break up, I said it "will" lead to a break up.

I STRONGLY suggest you see a marriage counselor ASAP.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9384

You do need to find someone objective in counciling who is not going to take sides on the issue.

She is intitled to her beliefs. Not that she is right, but that she is an autonomous individual and wants control over her own thoughts. Every individual disires control over their bodies and thoughts no matter the beliefs. So, the issue becomes how do you influance the kids together without being pitted against each other.

WHATEVER grievances you have with her MUST BE PUT ASIDE FOR THE KIDS! AND THAT WORKS BOTH WAYS. SHE cannot use the kids against you and you should not do that to her either.

WE UNDERSTAND. BUT ultimatly THOSE KIDS need a stable environment where they KNOW that both of you love them. THAT IS AN UNBREAKABLE RULE if you BOTH disire them to be mentaly healthy.

She is afraid of things she doesnt understand. But you dont have to allow that to distract you from what is most important, the kids.

Whatever you decide to do always default to putting the kids interest first.

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:26 am

Nice thoughts Brian.

If the kids see mom and dad openly contradicting each other, that sets up a war between the two of you where the kids are in the middle. And of course, and no matter what you tell them, the kids will think it's their fault. You can amicabally say, "Mommy believes this and I believe that." But to be hostile to each other's views with the kids as the intermediary . . .

Get some marriage counsiling NOW. In fact, your next post to this board should start, "My wife and I just got back from our first counsiling session . . . "

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:41 pm

You should direct your children to Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" series. To simply say that "when we die, that's it", is very bleak and barren. There are too many atheists who say this, and I myself find it difficult how they can reconcile this. As an atheist, I certainly disagree with such an attitude about this subject. I think atheists seem to forget that we are "Starstuff". This was a famous phrase by Sagan, and if you think about it, such a phrase needs no metaphysics to explain what happens to us when we die. Simply take a look at what we are made of, and realize the myriad ways in which this substance is used on this planet. The substance I speak of is responsible for nearly all of the compounds on this planet, and everything that constitutes our physical state; "Atoms".

When we die, there is no afterlife in the sense of a self identified spirit, but there is an afterlife in that when our bodies decay, the bonds between the atoms naturally lose hold, and break off into the plenitude of atoms who eventually find their way playing any random role they would eventually find themselves playing. What I advocate here is that we are all part of the same body of atoms in this planet. I cannot value myself without first valuing equally what I am made of, for without these particles, I, nor anyone here, would be here today. This is one of the reasons why I am a humanist, and it scares me that hardly anyone on these boards sees it this way. There is no superstitious bunks in what I say, it is pure science. We know that atoms exist, we can manipulate them, separate their bond ourselves, they play a role in generating consciousness, and we also know that we are made of them.

I ask that the meme I presented here to you all be propagated. It is a positive meme, and I find it difficult to contradict given the wealth of evidence in favor of such a view. The logic is quite simple. We know that atoms recycle themselves, and we are made of atoms. This is not reductionist because, there is not a single compound in our body which cannot be broken down to single atoms; it can. It is a beautiful and elegant explanation for what happens after we die. To say that "That's it" is simply untrue and disregards what science has found to be the case.

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWoySSs0ggw&NR

part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTabKIfoZno&mode=related&search=

part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXEMw7t-lus&mode=related&search=

part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG57S8zJWug&mode=related&search=

Please watch the above cosmos episodes if you're interested. I recommend it highly.


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