Hello (from Australia)

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:33 am

Hi There,

I've just come across some of the debates on the debate hour podcast and have really enjoyed them, so I'm brand new! If 3-4 years behind Smile

Quick intro, I'm a cautiously optimistic agnostic - can't say atheist because I suspect I enjoy the discussion more than any label.

My father was a fairly progressive Church minister who formally trained as a scientist (particularly chaos theory) who taught me to question everything whilst we grew up believing in Father Christmas and God. He then had an affair with my Sunday School teacher when I was 9 which makes for a genuine (all pain now fully therapised away Wink

) starting place for anyone to explore the fundamental teachings of my childhood.

Since then, I've enjoyed hearing anyone who believes anything and this had led me down some interesting and quite crazy paths. I think my only actual belief is that one person cannot hold the monopoly on belief.

I like to hear-read the discussions, I can't foresee that I will ever move away from the belief that no-one has it all right but I'm willing to change.

I live a long way from any major city in Australia - a country that really doesn't have a lot of the influential extremes of our American friends. I literally have Kangaroos grazing in the front yard and Koalas in the national park about 500 meters away... so I'm possibly deliberately exempt from the pain that fundamental belief causes locally.

I fear for the world I see on television and the way we are heading. I really just hope we all find a way to feel that the logical will prevail.

Thank you to all those who have put this web page and the discussions together, I enjoy them immensely.

The Learned Joined: May 11, 2010 Posts: 138

optimistic agnostic

I LOVE IT

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:17 am

hehe thank you! But I need to add "Cautiously" and "many years of therapy"... disclaimers are my friend.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:04 pm

Welcome!

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:38 pm

Welcome Imaginaryshouting, it's a pleasure to have you here Very Happy

Quote:

Quick intro, I'm a cautiously optimistic agnostic - can't say atheist because I suspect I enjoy the discussion more than any label.

I enjoy the label and the disscusion Laughing

I asked daredevil this question recently. Do you actively, positively (not possibly) believe a god exists? Give it some time... think about it

A friendly reminder to daredevil... I'm still awaiting your answer as to why you believe a god exists.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:46 pm

Thank you all for the welcomes Smile

MockingGods wrote:

Do you actively, positively (not possibly) believe a god exists? Give it some time... think about it

Thanks for the question too.
I've given it a lot of thought and I think the short answer is "No", because of the word 'actively'.

(I can only follow this analogy so far): Had you asked "Do you actively, positively (not possibly) believe in extra terrestrial life?", my answer would have to be "No" too, although I definitely believe in the possibility and would be bewildered by someone claiming an extreme and dogmatic position either way. This view is complicated by my understanding of mental illness which can create some fairly compelling experiences in the form of visual, auditory or intellectual hallucinations.

My position is currently that I believe in the fallability of human perspective and I truly believe we can never know unless someone lands and talks to us. (and even then.. I'm sure some of us will doubt it). I'll quite happily argue either way and when I run out of knowledge I will seek to fill the gaps.

I'm sure as I catch up with reading the forum I will get a sense of what everyone else thinks, but I would like to hear-read your answer to the same question Very Happy

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:26 am

One of the best responces to that question I've recieved so far. Thank you.

Imaginaryshouting wrote:

I've given it a lot of thought and I think the short answer is "No", because of the word 'actively'.

Same here, and thus why I refer to myself as an atheist.

Quote:

(I can only follow this analogy so far): Had you asked "Do you actively, positively (not possibly) believe in extra terrestrial life?", my answer would have to be "No" too, although I definitely believe in the possibility and would be bewildered by someone claiming an extreme and dogmatic position either way. This view is complicated by my understanding of mental illness which can create some fairly compelling experiences in the form of visual, auditory or intellectual hallucinations.

Great analogy! I'm the same way. However, when I think of god and alien life belief on a scale of probability it would look something like this. Keep in mind that a belief in alien life would concern a natural phenomenon, while god belief generally isn't thought of in that manner.

Probabilty scale for a god to exist 0-!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------100

Probabilty scale for alien life to exist 0--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!-100

So my belief in the possibility of alien life is many times higher (approaching active belief), while god belief is just the opposite (approaching active disbelief). Also, we have evidence that natural life does exist, which makes the probabilty of it existing elsewhere in the universe a near absolute.

Now a more interesting question with scales Very Happy

Has intelligent extraterrestial life visited this planet compared to a god existing.

Probabilty scale for a god to exist 0-!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------100

Probabilty scale for a visiting intelligent ET 0---!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------100

Note, while very low, I find it more likely ET has visited this planet (again a natural phenomenon) then for a god to exist.

Quote:

My position is currently that I believe in the fallability of human perspective and I truly believe we can never know unless someone lands and talks to us. (and even then.. I'm sure some of us will doubt it). I'll quite happily argue either way and when I run out of knowledge I will seek to fill the gaps.

Knowledge is different then belief my new friend. If we had knowledge of a god, belief would become unnecessary, just as the terms theist and atheist would become unnecessary. The same holds true for ET life, intelligent or otherwise. If we discover solid evidence for life on Mars (even microbial) belief in ET life will become knowledge, and we could say with a fair degree of confidence, ET life exists.

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:01 am

Thanks for the response! I really like the scales, I'd like it if more people used them because there are many times I think my discomfort with using particular labels comes from my own internal scales Smile

I guess my own experience has been that I have had genuine interactions with an imaginary friend who I associated with a god, and this has helped me through many difficult times. I have not had that with E.T.

Quote:

"Knowledge is different then belief my new friend. If we had knowledge of a god, belief would become unnecessary, just as the terms theist and atheist would become unnecessary."

I'm also not necessarily convinced that knowledge is completely different from belief, as both rely so heavily on the individual's location, time in history and upbringing as well as individual experience.

Many people today are able to question evidence that others consider overwhelming even if that questioning has to rely on a conspiracy theory. Knowledge, theory and belief are closely related and I think they are all still personal.

I take your point though, I just listened to the Debate Hour on the Flat Earth Believers and was interested in my own reaction to that - surely we know at least that?

My other conflict is that I think I need to believe someone is driving the train without ever being able to visualise what that being would look like (and while simultaneously finding this need absurd).

Some days I think that I can just be content with the miracle of nature, others I want to know who's running the show. Smile

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:45 pm

Imaginaryshouting wrote:

I guess my own experience has been that I have had genuine interactions with an imaginary friend who I associated with a god, and this has helped me through many difficult times. I have not had that with E.T.

Many people claim to have similar experiences with ET, in fact, it's possible this might be a different expression of the same experience. Imaginary childhood friends, ghosts, goblins, gods, alien probes... samey same. Wink

Quote:

I'm also not necessarily convinced that knowledge is completely different from belief, as both rely so heavily on the individual's location, time in history and upbringing as well as individual experience.

Knowledge and belief are most certainly interrelated. For instance, my knowledge about data pointing to "flat space" has led me to believe the universe is probably infinite. When we're talking about theism/atheism though, we're talking about belief in a single type of entity, which shows no real world analogue, leaves no tangible evidence and is widely held to be not natural (supernatural). We have no knowledge (read evidence/data) to support secondary beliefs in this entity. We basically only have a primary belief, does it or does it not exist? From that primary belief (not knowledge) stem secondary religious concepts about the nature of the entity. We don't start with knowledge then build opinions/beliefs.

Compare that now to belief in extraterrestrial life. We do have knowledge of a real world analogue, that being life on this planet, which is widely held to be natural. What we don't have is any evidence (yet) to support this conclusion beyond our earthly bounds. Up until just recently we had no evidence to support planets around other stars, even though the general consensus was positive. The same paradigm can easily be extended to the question of belief in E.T. life. When you add intelligence, or the ability to visit our planet, things become much more complicated and less likely. For instance, while life appears to be common and diverse, intelligence seems to be rare (from our perspective anyway).

So yes, I would say knowledge can certainly inform beliefs, while maintaining my stance that we have no knowledge of a god. Does that help at all?

Quote:

Some days I think that I can just be content with the miracle of nature, others I want to know who's running the show.

What a wonderful, anthropomorphic bias. I resist the urge myself. Very Happy

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:12 pm

That helps a lot! I can feel my brain stretching already. Smile

It's been rare for me to find people who don't tell me I'm just a 'cop out' or blasphemer.
Thank you.

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:12 pm

Imaginaryshouting wrote:

That helps a lot! I can feel my brain stretching already. Smile

It's been rare for me to find people who don't tell me I'm just a 'cop out' or blasphemer.

Yep, I have had much good brain-expanding from this site too. Sometimes I think I'm in that old flick, "Scanners"!

I hope you enjoy it here. Welcome!

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:07 pm

Imaginaryshouting wrote:

That helps a lot! I can feel my brain stretching already. Smile

It's been rare for me to find people who don't tell me I'm just a 'cop out' or blasphemer.
Thank you.

It's often the cop-outs and blasphemers that offer the most interesting perspectives, not to imply you are either Wink

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:30 am

MockingGods wrote:

Imaginaryshouting wrote:

That helps a lot! I can feel my brain stretching already. Smile

It's been rare for me to find people who don't tell me I'm just a 'cop out' or blasphemer.
Thank you.

It's often the cop-outs and blasphemers that offer the most interesting perspectives, not to imply you are either Wink

Haha I am sure at times I am both, I'm ok with it Wink

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:20 pm

Imaginaryshouting wrote:

MockingGods wrote:

Imaginaryshouting wrote:

That helps a lot! I can feel my brain stretching already. Smile

It's been rare for me to find people who don't tell me I'm just a 'cop out' or blasphemer.
Thank you.

It's often the cop-outs and blasphemers that offer the most interesting perspectives, not to imply you are either Wink

Haha I am sure at times I am both, I'm ok with it Wink

Me too

Confident Learner Joined: Sep 02, 2010 Posts: 67

Hi. In short I'm new to this site and I'm too from Australia.
Born a Muslim, gown up practicing it until logic kicked in, which changed everything. In trying to make sense ran to other religions found out that it was the same absurd then to philosophy found out that it was trying to understand ourselves which led me to science and the answer Evolution that we evolved. Instantly everything made sense (well not instantly....actualy Maybe it was...)why the world is what it is (God doesn't make sense,the idea that all what is going on in the world is part of a divine plan....anyway), All of a sudden the questions were did we come from?? ans. Primitive species. How did we get here??. ans. Instinct of survival and adaptation. What is our purpose?? ans. Self preservation. Where we are going when we die?? ans. Back to primitive species when your body rots and other species feed on your body so they have a little of you in them and it continues. Anyway I must say I enjoyed the conversations between Imaginaryshouting and MockingGods. Thanks for this site infidelguy.


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