Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:59 am
Well well, looks like Dawkins has company. Now Hawking also believes (that's such an inaccurate word) in alien life in the universe. He doesn't believe we should say 'Hi' though as we'll meet the same fate as the indigenous population of the Americas when it came time to play with the kids across the pond.
WooBak (0 friends, send message) wrote: 2d 20h ago
You are not alone! I met an alien and it did no harm. Hawkins has not met an alien and i doubt very much if they would visit him. The little Grey I communicated with came in one of three falling stars. They are very fast and precise. The first one stopped about 25 yards above ground level and done a 90 degree turn. The other two followed and they made no sound but they glowed and changed colour. There is not enough room here to tell all but as for the skeptics, you suck!! As for NASA, SETI and especially the Military they do not trust you because you idiots keep shooting at them. It asked me to pass on a message 'Do Not Shoot' and there is no need to be afraid of the little Grey.
Some disagree like Ethan Siegel, who thinks we should all be pals and that any race that survives long enough to get into space and travel so far would be sufficiently 'enlightened' not to see us as pet food.
So IG'ers what should we do? Play nice or play dead? Shout out or stay low?
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
FullMentalJackpot The Learned
Joined: Jan 11, 2008
Posts: 109
Posted:
Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:32 am
I think it's the better policy to remain as quiet as possible. Not just because of potential cultural or technological shock but because of the potential for a hostile or generally destructive response from aliens. Fortunately satellite transmissions are making us much more difficult to pinpoint rather then relying on radio. Only if you engage in extreme anthropomorphizing and then deduce from that some form of human enlightenment can you assume an advanced, human like species, might be benevolent.
skepsis Just Arrived
Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 8
Posted:
Thu May 06, 2010 1:27 am
I think the mistake here is assuming that, in encountering space aliens, WE would be the ones in danger...
BornAgainAthiest Graduate Thinker
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Posts: 669
Location: Here.
Posted:
Thu May 06, 2010 2:44 pm
iPondR wrote:
Well well, looks like Dawkins has company. Now Hawking also believes (that's such an inaccurate word) in alien life in the universe. He doesn't believe we should say 'Hi' though as we'll meet the same fate as the indigenous population of the Americas when it came time to play with the kids across the pond.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/04/stephen-hawking-says-trying-to-contact-space-aliens-is-too-risky/1
[...make sure to read the comments under this one... holy crap on a cracker!! ] example;
Quote:
WooBak (0 friends, send message) wrote: 2d 20h ago
You are not alone! I met an alien and it did no harm. Hawkins has not met an alien and i doubt very much if they would visit him. The little Grey I communicated with came in one of three falling stars. They are very fast and precise. The first one stopped about 25 yards above ground level and done a 90 degree turn. The other two followed and they made no sound but they glowed and changed colour. There is not enough room here to tell all but as for the skeptics, you suck!! As for NASA, SETI and especially the Military they do not trust you because you idiots keep shooting at them. It asked me to pass on a message 'Do Not Shoot' and there is no need to be afraid of the little Grey.
So IG'ers what should we do? Play nice or play dead? Shout out or stay low?
Hi iPondR!
Imho, it's way too late to stay low or play dead because we've already been doing a lot of shouting out. Our only option (for what it's worth) is to play nice and hope for the best.
Too late to Stay Low/Play Dead.
Here's why.
Since the late 1930's we've been beaming ever more powerful and sophisticated radio and tv signals into space. We can't get those suckers back. Any alien who's less than 60 light-years of the Sun, with even moderately more advanced technology than ours (say, just a few centuries), will know we're here.
Also, we're currently in the business of regularly detecting exoplanets around other stars and we've just started measuring the gases in their atmosphere's by spectroscopic analysis. If we can do this over distances up to 500 light-years, I'm sure any extraterrestrials out there can too. If they'd turned their 'scopes towards Earth anytime over the last billion years they'd have seen the all of the biomarkers that astronomers are currently looking for - Oxygen, Nitrogen, Methane, Carbon Dioxide, Ozone, etc. These gases have been screaming, "LIFE HERE!" for geological ages.
Play nice and Hope!
I disagree with Siegel on two points. He says that we are in our technological infancy, but I would say that we are actually technological newborns. Also, his overly-optimistic view of alien psychology fails to take into account the following warning signs from human history...
*
Even well-meaning, peaceful colonizers from the technologically superior West bought with them unforeseen problems that decimated more primitive cultures and their ecosystems.
Here I'm talking about Smallpox, Measles and TB. Cats, dogs and rats, along with their parasites and bacterial fauna. Were Rabbits and Cane Toads native to Australia? The list goes on and on.
*
How adept are humans at misunderstanding each other, even when they belong to the same race, nation, language group or even family? Very, I'd say. Multiply these difficulties tenfold when it comes to different human cultures trying to understand each other. Wars have started this way. Remember that these communication problems occur
within
the human race, who, since they all share the same genetic heritage, the same physiological needs and the same environment, have all these things in common. An alien will have none of these, so multiply the difficulties ten thousand fold and hope for the best!
*
Finally, what is the track record of the human race when it comes to bridging the gap of understanding between itself and the other intelligent species found on this planet? E.g., whales and dolphins and chimpanzees. Which are we more successful at? Killing them or talking with them?
No, I cannot agree with what Siegel says. Alien starships hellbent on destroying us make no kind of sense to me. The brand of caution I'm advocating stems from my worries about the accidents, inadvertent catastrophes and unforeseen errors that happen
after
first contact. Both parties may be peaceful and well-disposed to each other, but it's the differences between the two that have the potential to destroy the younger, weaker culture.
Yes, that would be us.
Call me negative, but that's my 50 cents worth.
Thanks.
BAA
_________________ Nietzsche was wrong - god never lived.
MockingGods Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 5693
Location: Planet Earth
Posted:
Thu May 06, 2010 8:08 pm
BAA wrote:
Imho, it's way too late to stay low or play dead because we've already been doing a lot of shouting out. Our only option (for what it's worth) is to play nice and hope for the best.
I agree with BAA here. I've heard our planet is more radio "bright" then our star and has been so for some time now. If there's another civilization out there looking for intelligent radio signals within the event horizon of our transmissions, then they probably already know we're here.
Here's an interesting debate concerning this topic...
_________________ Believing Yahweh could send someone to hell is just like believing Zeus could strike someone with a lightning bolt.
Religion: Born of human imagination, sustained by unapproachable dogma.
iPondR Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Sun May 09, 2010 11:57 pm
Thanks all, I also thought I'd comment on what these news items indicate for western industrial cultures and where we might be heading.
I'll geek out in a future post about the hypothetical scenario of alien contact
I do find it encouraging that Dawkins, Hawking and others like Paul Davies, Seth Shostak (sp?) of SETI etc get some reasonable media coverage saying things that only a decade or two ago whould have made them something of a marginal figure in their respected fields (at least they didn't come under house arrest or get burned st the stake!) - what a shift in values!
That doesn't mean that anything to do with aliens is suddenly OK... am I correct in assuming that the current remake of 'V' has tanked in the US? It shows at 10p.m. Sunday night here (Sydney)! What was considered a TV 'event' in the 80's now seems quite preposterous, despite high production values, reasonably good acting and something for everyone approach... (this may need it's own thread!) shame though as scripted scifi drama needs all the help it can get right now...
Now I'll digress. Is the public of today sufficiently savvy to realise that
'they'
would not likely be that similar to us (why would they be reptiles? surely evolution on another planet would result to similar-yet different responses... oh yes, maybe they originated from us, or we from them, or we share a common ancestor uuugh! ) and yet so effing advanced that they
NEED
us for something-or-other? (etc etc) come the eff ON!! As a race, they could just bitch-slap us into submission in 10 days or less! Why the mind games (other than for dramatic (never ending 'Lost style) effect? Keep em hooked is the imperative of TV after all... (versus the mindless glurge of 99% of realiTV)
The days of just trawling the net for conspiracy theories and using them to underpin specialFX extravaganzas can't end soon enough! Evidence based TV drama, please. We need a dramatic version of Big Bang Theory, we're over CSI, thanks Hollywood (another thread?)
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
BornAgainAthiest Graduate Thinker
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Posts: 669
Location: Here.
Posted:
Mon May 10, 2010 2:20 pm
iPondR wrote:
Thanks all, I also thought I'd comment on what these news items indicate for western industrial cultures and where we might be heading.
I'll geek out in a future post about the hypothetical scenario of alien contact
I do find it encouraging that Dawkins, Hawking and others like Paul Davies, Seth Shostak (sp?) of SETI etc get some reasonable media coverage saying things that only a decade or two ago whould have made them something of a marginal figure in their respected fields (at least they didn't come under house arrest or get burned st the stake!) -
what a shift in values
!
House Arrest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei
Please read the last paragraph under the heading, 'Church Controversy' and note that it's taken 376 years for the Papacy (then under Pope John Paul II) to...
A.
"Express it's regret for how the Galileo affair was handled..."
B.
Acknowledge it's errors in using the Inquisition, the Papal Court and the threat of eternal hellfire (excommunication) to bludgeon an old man in poor health, into submission.
C.
Propose (in 2008) that a statue of the man be erected within the Vatican walls. (Oh wow! Like that's really going to make up for twenty-two years of house arrest!)
His crime? Nothing to do with God, Jesus or the Bible. Nope. Nothing more than suggesting that the Earth moved around the Sun and not vice versa. So what's heretical about that?
Only that it de-thrones Man, the pinnacle and paragon of God's creation, from the center of the cosmos, where he rightly belongs. Galileo's speculation, based on observation and hard data, wasn't a threat to the majesty or supremacy of God. No. It was a threat to the spiritual, secular and political power power of the Roman Catholic Church, which claimed divine infallibility.
That
was the real reason why Galileo was sacrificed on the altar of Papal power.
Now compare this sorry tale to an exquisitely horrible one...
Burned at the Stake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
A.
Please compare, 'Cosmology before Bruno' and "Bruno's Cosmology', taking note of just how far in advance of his time this man was. It was only in the 20th century that scientists have been able to confirm three out of the five following ideas by direct observation and measurement.
* The universe is homogenous, that is, without a center. We only appear to be at the center. It looks the same in all directions and has no preferred axis, orientation or direction. The Hubble Ultra-Deep field ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUDF ) and the Cosmic Microwave Background ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMB ) agree with Bruno's cosmological p.o.v.
* He considered Space and Time to be infinite. It wasn't until the 1920's that it was realized that there are other galaxies
outside
the Milky Way - until then, our galaxy was thought to be the whole universe.
* Bruno thought that all the other stars were Sun's, just like ours and that ours was nothing special, just another star. Because he preceding Galileo and his telescopic observations by decades, there was no way he could have known that his views were correct.
* Bruno declared that solar systems of stars and planets were the basic building blocks of the universe. It took centuries to confirm this about our solar system and we had to wait until 1996 to detect the first extra-solar planet around another star.
* He declared that comets were natural phenomena and not supernatural portents of doom. In 1705 Edmund Halley computed and predicted the orbit and return of the comet that bears his name, thereby establishing that it was a natural, physical body, like the other planets.
B.
Please read, 'Imprisonment, Trial and Execution, 1592 - 1600' and note that...
* Bruno was imprisoned here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Nona for seven years
* When he was tied to the stake for execution, "his tongue was imprisoned because of his wicked words". So, the poor man was gagged and forced to suffer in silence.
* It's quite possible that he endured the sequence listed under the heading, 'Cause of Death' on this page... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned_at_the_stake
* Modern analysis of the bodies of burns victims reveal sky-high levels of the biochemical markers associated with extreme pain. Yes, this is
the
most agonizing way to die!
C.
On the 400th anniversary of Bruno's death (the year 2000), Cardinal Angelo Sodano declared Bruno's death to be a "sad episode". Despite his regret, he defended Bruno's persecutors, maintaining that the Inquisitors, "had the desire to preserve freedom and did everything possible to save his life" by trying to make him recant and subsequently by appealing the capital punishment with the secular authorities of Rome.
Oh well, that's alright then, isn't it? Btw, to whom did the secular authorities of Rome look to for spiritual guidance? The Church of Rome maybe?
Presumably, we'll have to wait until centuries after the [1996] discovery of other worlds orbiting other stars for the Papacy to get their shit together and de-excommunicate him? Maybe they'll apologize too?
That doesn't mean that anything to do with aliens is suddenly OK... am I correct in assuming that the current remake of 'V' has tanked in the US? It shows at 10p.m. Sunday night here (Sydney)! What was considered a TV 'event' in the 80's now seems quite preposterous, despite high production values, reasonably good acting and something for everyone approach... (this may need it's own thread!) shame though as scripted scifi drama needs all the help it can get right now...
Now I'll digress. Is the public of today sufficiently savvy to realise that
'they'
would not likely be that similar to us (why would they be reptiles? surely evolution on another planet would result to similar-yet different responses... oh yes, maybe they originated from us, or we from them, or we share a common ancestor uuugh! ) and yet so effing advanced that they
NEED
us for something-or-other? (etc etc) come the eff ON!! As a race, they could just bitch-slap us into submission in 10 days or less! Why the mind games (other than for dramatic (never ending 'Lost style) effect? Keep em hooked is the imperative of TV after all... (versus the mindless glurge of 99% of realiTV)
The days of just trawling the net for conspiracy theories and using them to underpin specialFX extravaganzas can't end soon enough! Evidence based TV drama, please. We need a dramatic version of Big Bang Theory, we're over CSI, thanks Hollywood (another thread?)
_________________ Nietzsche was wrong - god never lived.
MockingGods Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 5693
Location: Planet Earth
Posted:
Mon May 10, 2010 9:56 pm
BAA wrote:
He (Giordano Bruno) considered Space and Time to be infinite.
I'd bet he was right
_________________ Believing Yahweh could send someone to hell is just like believing Zeus could strike someone with a lightning bolt.
Religion: Born of human imagination, sustained by unapproachable dogma.
iPondR Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Tue May 11, 2010 3:37 am
MockingGods wrote:
BAA wrote:
He (Giordano Bruno) considered Space and Time to be infinite.
I'd bet he was right
Y'know, I wonder how far along we'd be today if Popeye sorry, Pope Pie-Ass the IV'th(or whatever) just turned around & said
EH' what up Giordano?? Sure... go ahead with a you work, no problemo.
Reckon I'd have my in-room replicator by now. No need to duck into the kitchen on the way to the flatscreen.
Pizza, style 3.01, hot.
NB this post was edited, guess which bit
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
Last edited by iPondR on Tue May 11, 2010 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Brian37 Forum Master
Joined: Oct 04, 2003
Posts: 10155
Posted:
Tue May 11, 2010 9:35 am
I am with both Hawkins and Dawkins ONLY in the sense of the sheer number of galaxies and bigger number of stars in all the galaxies and the sheer number of planets we would find. AND that the atoms that make up amino acids are part of the universe. So strictly from a statistical view we should expect to find some sort of life out there.
HOWEVER, being that material is the same and atoms are the same, we do no know of any material that would be able to overcome the distance of space. I doubt whatever life like us that we could find out there would be able to get to us. I think the only thing we'd be able to do is talk to them, but what ever message got to them would be long after we are dead and then the time to respond. I think that is the best we can do.
I don't think we have been visited nor do I think anything out there could.
BUT it wouldn't surprise me the variety of galaxies and combos of stars and planets in the entire universe, there might be solar systems with more than one earth like planet with some sort of evolution happening.
iPondR Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
So, there's this alien civilization off in the Andromeda Galaxy see... minding their own biz, just minding their own biz OK, being all uber-advanced and interdimensional n' stuff... and along comes this huge GRB and FRIZZ... instant mirowaved aliens.
Bugger.
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
MockingGods Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 5693
Location: Planet Earth
Posted:
Wed May 12, 2010 8:47 pm
Brian37 wrote:
HOWEVER, being that material is the same and atoms are the same, we do no know of any material that would be able to overcome the distance of space. I doubt whatever life like us that we could find out there would be able to get to us. I think the only thing we'd be able to do is talk to them, but what ever message got to them would be long after we are dead and then the time to respond. I think that is the best we can do.
An intelligence that could be "turned off" (say a machine intelligence) could theoretically survive vast distances of space thus making the travel time moot. Michio Kaku, one of Reggie's physicist guests and a personal favorite, claims that creating worm holes are possible given enough technical sophistication and energy. I don't think we know enough about the reality of space and time to make strong conclusions about traversing large distances in space.
_________________ Believing Yahweh could send someone to hell is just like believing Zeus could strike someone with a lightning bolt.
Religion: Born of human imagination, sustained by unapproachable dogma.
Last edited by MockingGods on Wed May 12, 2010 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
MockingGods Master of Logic
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 5693
Location: Planet Earth
Posted:
Wed May 12, 2010 8:49 pm
iPondR wrote:
MockingGods wrote:
BAA wrote:
He (Giordano Bruno) considered Space and Time to be infinite.
I'd bet he was right
Y'know, I wonder how far along we'd be today if Popeye sorry, Pope Pie-Ass the IV'th(or whatever) just turned around & said
EH' what up Giordano?? Sure... go ahead with a you work, no problemo.
Reckon I'd have my in-room replicator by now. No need to duck into the kitchen on the way to the flatscreen.
Pizza, style 3.01, hot.
NB this post was edited, guess which bit
_________________ Believing Yahweh could send someone to hell is just like believing Zeus could strike someone with a lightning bolt.
Religion: Born of human imagination, sustained by unapproachable dogma.
iPondR Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Wed May 12, 2010 11:33 pm
MockingGods wrote:
iPondR wrote:
MockingGods wrote:
BAA wrote:
He (Giordano Bruno) considered Space and Time to be infinite.
I'd bet he was right
Y'know, I wonder how far along we'd be today if Popeye sorry, Pope Pie-Ass the IV'th(or whatever) just turned around & said
EH' what up Giordano?? Sure... go ahead with a you work, no problemo.
Reckon I'd have my in-room replicator by now. No need to duck into the kitchen on the way to the
flatscreen
SORRY, I meant holographic projection room!!
.
Pizza, style 3.01, hot.
NB this post was edited, guess which bit
Geek-out to follow sooon!! Promise.
I wanna talk about convergent evolution.
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
iPondR Graduate Thinker
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 534
Location: Aussie Prawn Facility; District 10
Posted:
Thu May 13, 2010 10:14 pm
I'm re-watching 'Cosmos' with Carl Sagan. Last saw it in bits 'n pieces when it originally aired. At the time my understanding is that he copped some criticism from his peers (again, not as bad as the poor bugger Giordano, yet...) which in the media/information age is no small thing. Yet, viewing his speculations about inhabited worlds and what forms of life there may (probably) be 'out there' it seems like no big deal today!!
OK so, with what we now know 20+ years later, the questions are just as interesting but now we move onto just what kind of life is it going to be? OK, as promised. Convergent evolution.
"How likely is it that we will encounter biological life (v's robotic probes) AND
how similar are the 'solutions' that evolved life can arrive at
given that we can assume you need a planet or moon for it to evolve on?
e.g. would water dwelling creatures ever develop civilisation? or is it only gas breathers...
You'd think that some kind of manual dexterity would be needed to
'just bang the rocks together guys'
So, what would the universals be in the race to sentience? And is altruism and empathy some sort of universal constant for transcending the tribal stage? Or is constant warring the way to go?
We just happen to have evolved as a species through geographical scattering. Perhaps if we'd been more concentrated and homogenous we'd just all be still sitting around the fire waving jawbones at each other
AND... if the robots arrive, what use would they have for empathy anyway? EEEK!!
_________________ I take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance, any day... - Douglas Adams
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