Why are we here?

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:57 am

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Quite a broad sweeping answer bad dog. Of course there would be plants.

It is a simple question scientifically

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Not every question is based on the atheist/scientist/religous concept or theme.

So you just want bullshit answers?

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There is a train of thought that suggests aliens gave us the technology we use today. Suggesting that in the past 100 years we have progressed inordinately quickly with the passage of time. That scientists were somehow shown new technology.

Technology has a snowball effect. There is ZERO evidence to support this train of thought you speak of.

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:15 am

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Not every question is based on the atheist/scientist/religous concept or theme.

So you just want bullshit answers?

eeEEERR, thnx dog, bet youre a real nice buy under all that foul language? or not. I was looking really toward the fact that there may be , y`know just maybe, there is someone else with an opinion other than yours, yet still remain perfectly eligible for the debate?

That somebodys train of thought might be geared to something other than an existential view of the world.

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:39 pm

Oh, so you DO want bullshit answers.

I'll let some one else jump on that then Cool

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:18 am

We need a dose of occam's razor here. There is no need to invoke alien intelligence feeding us to explain the way things are.

But, infidelbilly, I really don't understand what you're asking about the mind...

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:41 am

baddogma wrote:

Oh, so you DO want bullshit answers.

Yes if thats all you can manage.

Oksham, what I am really asking is wether you think your mind is only the result of synapses (brain connections) creating a sort of brain map, to give you a "mind/conscience" or wether your mind is a seperate entity. Maybe God-given for want of a better example.

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:24 am

infidelbilly wrote:

baddogma wrote:

Oh, so you DO want bullshit answers.

Yes if thats all you can manage.

Oksham, what I am really asking is wether you think your mind is only the result of synapses (brain connections) creating a sort of brain map, to give you a "mind/conscience" or wether your mind is a seperate entity. Maybe God-given for want of a better example.

I don't think there's any serious question here. A mind is a result of a nervous system. Without a nervous system, there can be no mind. A term more and more applied to this sort of thing is 'emergence.' I think this term usually serves to confuse more than anything. We live in a world of emergent domains. They're everywhere. The tornado is an example I've used in the past. It would be difficult if not impossible to determine the attributes of a tornado by examining the air and other substances suspended in the air that consistutes a tornado. A tornado is best studied within the domain to which it applies.

Of course the attributes of a tornado are not completely separate from it's physical contents. Analysis of the atmosphere in question can tell us things about how fast a tornado can spin, for example, based on the fluid dynamics of the atmosphere, just as the analysis of the electircal impulses discharged by neurons can tell us something about the maximum rate at which a mind can function. In other words, analysis of the domain 'just below' an emergent entity can reveal a number of limiters to the properties an entity can have, but it will not tell us very much about the actual behavior and structure of the entity itself. How much could you really learn about the jet stream using an electron microscope? Could one really figure out that water expands when it freezes with an exhaustive analysis of an H2O molecule?

Finally: The mind is fundamentally no different from a tornado in this respect.

This brings up another point I like to make and that is that I think complaints of reductionism (which is the complaint of many who want to assert that minds are separate from brains) are misguided if they go beyond the simple synergetic recognition that a system taken as a whole can exceed the sum of its parts. When I speak of domains, I do not intend to imply (as anti-reductionists do) that the domains of nature are completely separate from one another and that to move from one domain to another, or to use one to at least partially explain another, is somehow breaking the rules. Each domain is built on (and even made of) the previous domain. But as we rise from one domain to another, new properties emerge that cannot be fully explained with appeals to the prior domain.

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:26 am

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Oksham, what I am really asking is wether you think your mind is only the result of synapses (brain connections) creating a sort of brain map, to give you a "mind/conscience" or wether your mind is a seperate entity. Maybe God-given for want of a better example.

Well, we are not born with the ability to "think", we are learning machines the first few years of our lives. I would think the evidence points towards your first synapses, and not the god answer.
I think you are mostly born with your personality but it is rapidly affected by outside stimuli.

If the mind was a separate functioning entity at birth, brain scans could pick up on thought activity.

Do you have any evidence to support the god answer?

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 04, 2006 Posts: 843

the "mind" is the aspect that we place on the the brain when we think

our brains control our minds

i know thats hard for you to wrap your head around, but just try and if it doesnt work, there will be a nice little splat as part of your brain kills itself

anyways....

the brain controls the mind as the mind is the "nature" of the brain. while said "natures" do not actually exist, material or otherwise, they are useful for portraying an idea.

our mind plays are part in why we are here becuase our brain is a result of evolution which allowed us to adapt and control the enviroment. our minds allow us to reproduce and continue our species, which is the ultimate meaning of life

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:18 am

Thnx kmisho, very trite answer. I cannot disagree, I am arguing for niether side but would like to see the "christian view" since they hold with God speaking to them ,this must be a mind that is on a different plane to our own. My apologies too Kmisho, I took a guess at your name and got it hopelessly wrong.

Kelreth too, nicely explained in somethign as close to laymans terms as we can get and a good explanation.
Please ,please baddogma, don`t think i am having a go at you. Look at the structure of these two answers. They are presented in the form of debate and not as a tongue lashing argument.

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:55 pm

infidelbilly wrote:

Thnx kmisho, very trite answer. I cannot disagree, I am arguing for niether side but would like to see the "christian view" since they hold with God speaking to them ,this must be a mind that is on a different plane to our own. My apologies too Kmisho, I took a guess at your name and got it hopelessly wrong.

Kelreth too, nicely explained in something as close to laymans terms as we can get and a good explanation.
Please ,please baddogma, don`t think i am having a go at you. Look at the structure of these two answers. They are presented in the form of debate and not as a tongue lashing argument.

The christian mind (but not ONLY the christian mind) is very different. In a frighteningly real sense they live on a different planet than I do. Some I've met assign a label of good or evil to literally everything. A poisonous snake is evil because it can kill you. So is a brick, because it can be used as a weapon. I've tried to imagine the mind of a person like this from the inside and the closest I can come is that it's like being on really strong acid. Every dead leaf and wandering insect has a magical, prismatic sheen of dire importance directly relavent to YOU emanating from it.

When I look at it this way, I find myself lobbing psychological diagnoses at it. Clinical narcissism and paranoid ideation manifesting as histrionic disorder springs to mind... I don't generally like to equate being religious in the everyday sense with mental illness, but I would say in many cases there are genuine diagnosable personality disorders present in someone who thinks the King of the Universe actually cares about him, watches what he does, and interferes on his behalf.

(You may have thought my earlier answer trite, but I do not troll cut-and-paste FAQ answers and I bet you have rarely run across as concise a description of that pop-term 'emergence', including concrete and easily graspable examples. The interesting thing is those who disagree with my view and think we really could learn why a galxay is spiral using a hadron collider if we knew enough about it.)

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:16 pm

To be sure, I do not doubt for a minute that the universe will be explained in the future. Observable facts explain why the universe is the way it is. Lets hope that the demise of the planet earth does not reach destruction before man finds himself a new home.
Religion may appear close to a paranoid insanity, Its followers seem to use little of thier minds and spout religous dogma. I sometimes feel quite concerned, (I attend an evagelical church, Why? Because I have a handfull of friends, who while being deluded by thier leaders at least nicer people to know than many.) thier minds have not been "washed", they stay as they are, but add religious dogma to brace themselves against a race wich is basically still survival of the fittest. Sure, our minds have changed to present an appearance of sociological behaviour, but writhing below the skin is an animal not even waiting but, working at its own domination. I find most religious people have very little to talk about outside of religion. Most are scared to leave and have become "institutionalised" in thier own prison. Of ourse the benefit is that they are free of the social issues that drive man to the brink of extinction.

Lets not forget our own chains, try living in a forest. Eat off the land, hunt/forage for food and make clothes from the skins, at least until you learn to weave.

It is not going to work, first you will be arested for vagrancy, followed by poaching and finally incarcerated in mans own fortress. Even if you manage the loneliness (is somebody going with you?) you still cannot get past being alone in your mind.

My personal opinion is that man is the scourge of the planet and speech has done more to gaol him than free him.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:37 am

Extinction is the rule of species. I think huamnity has the ability to stave off the normal course of extinction, but I doubt we have the wherewithall to exercize the ability.

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My personal opinion is that man is the scourge of the planet and speech has done more to gaol him than free him.

Could you say more about this.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:22 am

Our chains are all about us. They are also all about us . I hate that , when the typed word has no inflection, talk about lost in translation. Pink Floyd made the best impression for this, except that they used a wall. The analogy is the same. Every time we are told to do something and we are forced (not literally) to comply, that adds a link to the chain. Every order, every new path, "The law" of man, do that, no, you can`t do that. Yes, you can have freedom of speech, no you cannot say, (catch 22). I can`t say that. Got a job? What you going to do then/ sit on your ass. Add another link. So ok ,you got a job. Somebody`s making more than you for doing less. Add another link.

Wlecome to the machine. As if you ever were welcome, another cog wears out and you step in to breach the flow. Add another link, New car? New house? grab that cash, stash it in your bank for............an hour, a week? Theres another link.

Man has made thousands of laws. If someone wanted you put away it would depend on a single factor. How much cash the said person had.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:06 am

infidelbilly wrote:

Our chains are all about us. They are also all about us . I hate that , when the typed word has no inflection, talk about lost in translation. Pink Floyd made the best impression for this, except that they used a wall. The analogy is the same. Every time we are told to do something and we are forced (not literally) to comply, that adds a link to the chain. Every order, every new path, "The law" of man, do that, no, you can`t do that. Yes, you can have freedom of speech, no you cannot say, (catch 22). I can`t say that. Got a job? What you going to do then/ sit on your ass. Add another link. So ok ,you got a job. Somebody`s making more than you for doing less. Add another link.

Wlecome to the machine. As if you ever were welcome, another cog wears out and you step in to breach the flow. Add another link, New car? New house? grab that cash, stash it in your bank for............an hour, a week? Theres another link.

Man has made thousands of laws. If someone wanted you put away it would depend on a single factor. How much cash the said person had.

i rather liked this bit. Pink Floyd, Fight Club, anti-materialism, existentialism...

kinda pretty, i thought.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:38 am

Here's a law for you, from Texas:

" No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being ."

But this is no surprise since it's from teh same state where it's a law that "When two trains meet each other at a railroad crossing, each shall come to a full stop, and neither shall proceed until the other has gone."

We must not be hard an Texas legislators. They are clearly mentally handicapped.


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