T he prophecies of the Tanakh do not refer to Yeshua but to other matters, so Jews are right not to accept him as messiah and Christians are wrong to maintain he is the object thereof. And those prophecies did not happen anyway!
You know that is an interesting point. There are valid reasons why Jewish people don't accpet Jesus as the Messiah. The Jesus described in the Bible simply didn't fit the "Messiah" job description.
For example, the Messiah supposed to accomplish...
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-2.
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
E. According to Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah was supposed to come out of the
blood line
of David. According to Scripture, Joseph was the one who was of the blood line of David, not Mary. So since Jesus and Joseph were not physically related, Jesus was NOT from the seed of David.
Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
NATIONOFHOLINESS Post Noob
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Posts: 58
Posted:
Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:48 am
AntJ313 wrote:
You know that is an interesting point. There are valid reasons why Jewish people don't accpet Jesus as the Messiah. The Jesus described in the Bible simply didn't fit the "Messiah" job description.
I'm going to respond to how the scriptures you listed below were indeed fullfilled, and how some things have not been fullfilled but still will be indirectly and directly fullfilled by Jesus Christ.
AntJ313 wrote:
For example, the Messiah supposed to accomplish...
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-2.
The Third Temple being built is not a physical temple. We are that temple and when we get our new bodies the temple will be finished. Christ was a sign of that.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
So that's the third temple.
AntJ313 wrote:
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Well that isn't over with yet. Have you all read the Book of Revelation? The true Jews (144.000) will be gathered together.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
AntJ313 wrote:
C. Bring in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
This has not happened yet either. Like I, and other believers say and know, this will come when Jesus Christ comes back. He had to make Himself known first so you would have a chance to accept Him.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
AntJ313 wrote:
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
This is happening through Evangelism of Jesus Christ. And it will be completed on Judgement day.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
AntJ313 wrote:
E. According to Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah was supposed to come out of the
blood line
of David. According to Scripture, Joseph was the one who was of the blood line of David, not Mary. So since Jesus and Joseph were not physically related, Jesus was NOT from the seed of David.
Where in the Bible does it say that the physical geneology has to come from a blood relative? If this is their first born son it does not matter. Especially since Jesus Christ came from God Himself. He created the child within Mary's womb. And yes this is out of the scope of logic because the Bible is not about man made logic. I admit that we are not dealing with logic when dealing with the Bible. Jesus Christ inherited Joseph's lineage. That is how it works in Israelite tradition.
AntJ313 wrote:
Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
In the Torah there was no concept of a Messiah. That concept is not even found until Daniel. So it's a concept that came through new revelation of God and Christ.
I'm going to respond to how the scriptures you listed below were indeed fullfilled, and how some things have not been fullfilled but still will be indirectly and directly fullfilled by Jesus Christ.
Well here is the first mistake. In the Jewish scriptures that give the prophesy, nowhere does it mention a “second coming”.
Quote:
The Third Temple being built is not a physical temple. We are that temple and when we get our new bodies the temple will be finished. Christ was a sign of that.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
So that's the third temple.
Jews don’t accept the writings of Paul. That is equivalent to Muslims pointing to the Hadith to show you that Prophet Muhammad is the fulfillment of John 14:26.
Quote:
Well that isn't over with yet. Have you all read the Book of Revelation? The true Jews (144.000) will be gathered together.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Jews don’t accept the book of Revelation. And again, the Old Testament doesn’t say the Messiah will do some stuff, leave, then come back a couple thousand years later to complete the job.
Quote:
This has not happened yet either. Like I, and other believers say and know, this will come when Jesus Christ comes back. He had to make Himself known first so you would have a chance to accept Him.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Diddo...
Quote:
Where in the Bible does it say that the physical geneology has to come from a blood relative?
That’s what makes someone a “blood relative”….through “physical genealogy”. Psalms 132:11 says, “The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David, he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon my throne”.
Quote:
Especially since Jesus Christ came from God Himself. He created the child within Mary's womb. And yes this is out of the scope of logic because the Bible is not about man made logic. I admit that we are not dealing with logic when dealing with the Bible.
Glad you admit the absurdity of a virgin having a child. When you say it takes faith, you’re admitting that these silly claims can’t be accepted on its own merits.
Quote:
Jesus Christ inherited Joseph's lineage. That is how it works in Israelite tradition.
Show me a Jewish scripture where this can be substantiated.
No, that's not logical. If God can "do all things",
can
God make a rock so big that not even He could lift?
baddogma Grand Poster
Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 1749
Location: Colorado
Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:03 am
NATIONOFHOLINESS wrote:
Yeah I see what you're saying. I don't think I thought of it that way before. I don't know why but I haven't. So you were there when that happened? Why did you attend a religious event? Aren't you an atheist? Just wondering.
Atheists can't attend religious services? I do. I married a Baptist.......
NATIONOFHOLINESS Post Noob
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Posts: 58
Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:11 am
You married a Baptist? Isn't the countradictory? You believe in nothing and she believes in Jesus Christ, how in the world does that work? I mean you don't want her to pray for you because prayer to you is an absurdity and to her it is not (so more than likely she is constantly praying for you).
I do not get it!
baddogma wrote:
NATIONOFHOLINESS wrote:
Yeah I see what you're saying. I don't think I thought of it that way before. I don't know why but I haven't. So you were there when that happened? Why did you attend a religious event? Aren't you an atheist? Just wondering.
Atheists can't attend religious services? I do. I married a Baptist.......
NATIONOFHOLINESS Post Noob
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Posts: 58
Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:20 am
gietalent wrote:
IS IT NOT LOGICAL THAT A "GOD" CAN DO ALL
Even Bible believers are starting to realize the Elohiym of the scriptures cannot and did not do all things. In fact I have not read in scripture where Elohiym and Theos said they (not Him by the way) can do all things. Elohiym and Theos are plural in the Aramic and Greek. I'm bringing this up to show you something that most theist (unlike me) won't admit.
In the scriptures Elohiym and Theos did specific things in their power. All of scripture is not literal. In fact most of it is allegorical. That's why it needs to be properly interpreted by a preacher who was sent of who you call "God".
AntJ313 wrote:
No, that's not logical. If God can "do all things",
can
God make a rock so big that not even He could lift?
That's the point! Elohiym CANNOT do all things. I would not say that because I can admit that is an absurdity that is not in scripture by the way. If Elohiym could do all things then Elohiym would have made beings that could not sin at all. Obviously Elohiym could not do that!
If Elohiym could do all things then Elohiym would have made beings that could not sin at all. Obviously Elohiym could not do that!
baddogma wrote:
What about free will?
That is the point of me saying that. If we have free will (and we do) Elohiym could not make humans that were their slaves. Elohiym had to make beings that could do what they wanted and Elohiym had to write laws (Torah) to govern the minds of us humans. We choose to follow those laws (Torah) or not.
Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 1749
Location: Colorado
Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:00 am
Quote:
[quote="NATIONOFHOLINESS"]You married a Baptist? Isn't the countradictory? You believe in nothing and she believes in Jesus Christ, how in the world does that work? I mean you don't want her to pray for you because prayer to you is an absurdity and to her it is not (so more than likely she is constantly praying for you).
I do not get it!
There are a lot of things you do not get.
There you go again telling me what I believe. Now I believe in nothing. Wow good to know.
Actually she was raised a baptist and was never exposed to free thought. After meeting me she immediately latched on to freethought and began to question.
When you begin to question the bible falls apart.
She is on here, Baptist666 ask her.
Also join us live on www.stickam.com and debate us face to face. Reggie does a show there Wed. and Fri. nights. Drop by.
NATIONOFHOLINESS Post Noob
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Posts: 58
Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:29 am
baddogma wrote:
There are a lot of things you do not get.
There you go again telling me what I believe. Now I believe in nothing. Wow good to know.
Actually she was raised a baptist and was never exposed to free thought. After meeting me she immediately latched on to freethought and began to question.
When you begin to question the bible falls apart.
She is on here, Baptist666 ask her.
Also join us live on www.stickam.com and debate us face to face. Reggie does a show there Wed. and Fri. nights. Drop by.
I know about stickam and Reginald's show. I have been in the chatroom when the show was going on. I mean here is my thing: atheists are just as onesided as most theists. So really why are some atheists so insulting. And if you believe in something what could it be? I mean what exactly would and atheist believe in?
And why would you want me to ask your wife anything? You want her to cuss me out too?
Joined: Feb 02, 2006
Posts: 1749
Location: Colorado
Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:54 pm
Quote:
atheists are just as onesided as most theists.
Duh, if we were not one sided we would be agnostic or theists. Either there are god/s or there arent. Period.
How can you be two sided about that?
Quote:
So really why are some atheists so insulting.
Look, I didn't come into a theist chat room and try to convert anyone. I'm not about converting anyone, I am about the truth, evidence and science. You came in here and proceded to tell me what I believe not knowing a thing about me, hijacked a thread and pissed a lot of people off. I created a new thread so we could talk about what we were talking about and you jumped topics which is fine, but I told you how I feel about Prophecy. It is non existent. Divine prophecy and predicting what may or may not happen in the future are different.
Quote:
And if you believe in something what could it be? I mean what exactly would and atheist believe in?
I believe in the search for the truth. I am open to theism, I just need evidence just like anything else I base my beliefs on. I do not have faith without evidence.
I believe in the scientific method. Testing theories to see what is true and what is not true.
I believe in humanity, morals, freedom, for religion and freedom FROM religion. I believe in the seperation of church and state. I believe all men are equil. I am anti-racism.
I believe in evolution, I have seen OVERWHELMING evidence that prooves beyond the shadow of a doubt to me that it is a scientific fact. Facts like broken vitimin c Gene, Retrovirus insertions, "junk" DNA, the fossil record, the geologic column, plate techtonics, ice layers, tree rings, mud and silt layers, transitional fossils, Astronomy ALL agree this is an ancient Universe.
I believe in a lot of things man. I served in the United States Marine Corps because I believe this is the finest nation in the history of our species! And I hate to see it falling into a theocracy.
So if you want to know what I believe ASK me, dont tell me.
You are wrong, Atheists do not all believe in evolution. Some believe aliens made us, others have different ideas.
The ONLY thing we have in common is a lack of belief in god/s. that is ALL. If you hang out here and listen you will see that.
Quote:
And why would you want me to ask your wife anything? You want her to cuss me out too?
She would not cuss you out. She would tell you why she married an atheist against the will of her family values. (Her family loves me by the way). We even attend service together.
You are closed minded. In order to have an open mind you must be willing to admit you MIGHT be wrong.
I am willing to admit that. I MIGHT be wrong. Convince me I am wrong.
Using scripture is not going to get you anywhere but laughed at on this site. MOST of the atheist/agnostics here are former believers. I have always been an atheist. I never believed in the existence of god/s.
We know the bible and know what it is about and don't believe you are any more qualified to interpret it than anyone else on this site.
NATIONOFHOLINESS Post Noob
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Posts: 58
Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:59 pm
AntJ313 wrote:
I think I have the Jennings/Young debate on CD. Maybe I can convert it to a wav file and e-mail it to you through YouSentIt.com. You'd probably like it. Young refused to answer Jennings' question at the end of the Baptism debate. But when they spoke about the trinity, Jennings didn't explain the verses that show the Father and
Jesus
as different people. I'm surprised he didn't go to Isaiah 9:6.
About Marvin "The Son of Man" Muhammad....I think Jennings thought he'd dominate the debate like he did with Smallwood, and make an ass out of him like he did Rodney. Even though Marvin said some crazy things, Jennings never really refuted him very good. Marvin had some kind of answer for everything Jennings said. When Jennings said, "All right....all right.....this ain't goin nowhere. I'm gonna cut it here", almost everyone in the Church were looking at each other in disbelief. Marvin later challenged him to a debate at a neutral location, and Jennings never returned the call. On August 24th of this year, he got into an interesting debate with Pastor Gene Co0k. In my opinion, even though they both sounded crazy to me...objectively speaking, Marvin won the debate.
Can you upload that file and let me know when you do because I want to hear it?
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T he prophecies of the Tanakh do not refer to Yeshua but to other matters, so Jews are right not to accept him as messiah and Christians are wrong to maintain he is the object thereof. And those prophecies did not happen anyway! 
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