Definition of a fanatic.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 81

Hello.

In a strange way I'm kinda glad this forum has been bombarded recently by the postings of a member I'll refer to as FS.

Why?
Because he's helped me understand a bit more about the bible - the book of Hebrews, to be exact. I don't mind learning and when I'm wrong about something, I'll admit it. FS corrected me on a number of points and that's fine with me.

Also, I've stepped back from answering his posts and taken a good, hard look at not just what he said but how he went about saying it. Now, I'm no psychologist but I can recognize some patterns of behavior when I see them. A brief search thru the 'Net has yielded some interesting quotes that I reckon deserve comparing with his words.

Before I link to these quotes I'd just like to say that I don't bad-mouth anyone here and I don't do name calling. If when you read these quotes, you're reminded of what FS has said and how he said it, then you've formed the same pattern as I have. Please draw your own conclusions.
For the sake of clarity I'll incorporate just a few of his words into this message.

Please read on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanaticism

Winston Churchill's comment seems very relevant.
Also...

http://humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/AORComment03.htm

I find the following portion of this item to be on target.
"Tenacity is the hallmark of fanaticism, and it is difficult to understand, let alone be countered by those that don't share that mindset. When you enjoy infallibility with God behind you, propositions and aims that appear lunatic to the rational mind are held with perfect credence and confidence in their achievability."
Compare this with...

"Yet you are a sinner, so how can I admit defeat?" From General Discussion thread, "ForeverSaved", page 6.

Finally...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2004/lecture5.shtml "I am right: you are dead."

This is a transcript from a British radio channel 4 broadcast from 2004. Please look closely at the last sentence of the paragraph headed, "Crusade of Vengeance." The speaker states that dialog with homicidally violent fanatics is impossible because their position has moved from, "I am right; you are wrong." to "I am right; you are dead." Disagreement with them means death for you. Now I'm not saying FS is violent in any way, but consider this.

When FS cannot admit error, asserts what to him are evident truthes and states that he is right and, "You're going to hell." (many times recently) isn't this the same pattern of behavior - just expressed in a non-violent way?

Please let me know if I've gone to far here, but I do think we are looking at textbook fanatic behavior in FS' postings.

Finally, I'd just like to say two more things.

Reading what FS says and how he said it has reminded me of an encounter I had with a person of a similar mindset when I was a christian. If there's sufficient interest I can relate the story of this incident to you here.

It's just possible that thinking about the psychology of fanaticism has given me an insight into the minds of christian martyrs. I admit this is speculation but if anyone wants to hear about it please lmk.

Thanks,

BornAgainAthiest.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 549

It is too sad and depressing for me to think about at the moment, after having read those articles- particularly the one about the Covert Kingdom. FS is a clear cut example of a delusional and zealous fanatic. I wonder how people like him might be reformed.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 81

Hello Cygnus.

Yes, I agree it's sad and distrubing too. I'm sorry but I can't offer any ideas about deprogramming people of this mindset. My experience in these matters is limited to two things - my own rejection of religious belief and my encounter with a religious fanatic over ten years ago. I played no part in deprogramming him, nor did I even challenge him about his beliefs.
The little I know about his mindset came about because he disrupted the meetings of our church and harassed some of it's members.
We had to get outside help to manage the situation. I can relate what I learnt then, if that's any help.

Thanks,

BornAgainAthiest.

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:01 am

Cygnus wrote:

It is too sad and depressing for me to think about at the moment, after having read those articles- particularly the one about the Covert Kingdom. FS is a clear cut example of a delusional and zealous fanatic. I wonder how people like him might be reformed.

I've thought about the "how to reform" question a lot with no results. In computer programming,
Fanaticism is like a recursive algorhythm. Every external influence has a result within the program,
and so nothing can get in or out. Like "God did it" so anything unexplained gives the "God did it" result.
Or "mysterious ways"... same thing. Anything that comes in that doesn't agree with the program comes
from the devil and as such is easily dismissed. Some members of my family are running this program
and I've never been able to break in, even using the Bible as my reference doesn't work. "You're not
reading it right" is the answer to that one. Accept Jesus and you'll understand it all.

Very difficult problem to solve.

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:31 am

I don't know that there's much we can do to deprogramme fanatics of this nature. In most of the personal deconversion stories we've heard on IG's show, it wasn't external forces so much as the individual's own rational mind that managed to break out of the box they'd been trapped in.

Seems they read something that didn't completely square with what they thought they knew or they found some kind of contradiction and that was what planted the seeds of doubt.

But I'm not so sure we can plant those seeds ourselves, especially when they consider us to be the enemy. I'm not sure how much attention they pay to the arguments we offer them.

Confident Learner Joined: Jun 16, 2008 Posts: 81

Hello Beelzy & Eon!

I must confess to not knowing much about the de-programming process, even though I managed to escape from the fundamentalist mindset by my own efforts. I suppose when you're doing it you don't know that you're doing it. You don't stop and analyse the process you're involved in, you just get on with it.

Our friend FS must represent the most extreme kind of fundamentalist fanaticism because when I was a born-again christian most of the folks I mixed with were nothing like him. Their certainty about god, jesus and heaven was a deeply but quietly held inner conviction, not an overbearing, ranting deluge of irrational dogma.

Now I'm no expert in psychology but there's a term I've heard of which might describe his kind of mindset. ATTACK - ESCAPE .

This is where an individual feels overwhelmingly threatened by some aspect of reality that is unacceptable to them. People caught in this kind of crisis rarely choose to stay imperiled - that way lies certain madness. *

They therefore have three options; Outside help, escape or attack-escape.

1. They can get help to deal with whatever they find threatening, neutralizing their fears with drug therapy, counselling and other treatments.

2. They can retreat from what is threatening them. This is ESCAPE and those choosing this route usually isolate themselves from others and construct elaborate methods (rituals, beliefs, obsessions,etc.) to manage their fears.

3. ATTACK - ESCAPE is a different mode of behavior altogether. Here the threat must be attacked, controlled and subdued. Sufferers of this behavioral trait brook no dialog, negotiation or debate with whoever or whatever they perceive as being threatening. They try to escape from their fears by gaining victory over it. If they've conquered it, it can't be a threat can it?

"Yet you are a sinner, so how can I admit defeat?" His words.

The more resistance they meet, the more insistent and inflexible they become. They are just as ritualistic and obsessional as those trapped in the ESCAPE mode of behavior, but instead of inflicting these quirks on themselves they turn them outwards and inflict them on others. They automatically expect others to understand whatever bizarre and illogical beliefs they hold to be plainly true and obvious.

"The Universe must have had a first cause (the Uncreated Creator) because the exponential progression of conscience would mean that you wouldn't be sinning by now." His words again.

Sadly I reckon that FS fits this description to a tee. I think we should pity him rather than fight with him - driving him further into his attack mode. That's why I chose to terminate my discussions with in all but one of the threads in this forum. I planned to give him one chance if he met me in the ,"Unproven Claim of the Uncreated Creator" thread. So far - nothing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* "But aren't they already mad?" I hear you say. Unbalanced certainly, but not mad as in needing a straightjacket and padded cell. It's a question of degree. An unbalanced person's mind is in crisis - but it won't stay that way. They can either be helped thru counselling and treatment or left to plunge deeper into their nightmares until they lose all control and become incurably insane.

Thanks,

BornAgainAthiest.

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:35 am

BornAgainAthiest wrote:

1. They can get help to deal with whatever they find threatening, neutralizing their fears with drug therapy, counselling and other treatments.

You forgot one, the oldest and perhaps most often used neutralizer of fear... religion. I've heard it suggested it was prehistoric fear that may have been responsible for the evolution of our widely held proclivity to god belief. I find this a reasonable hypothesis.

Quote:

I think we should pity him rather than fight with him - driving him further into his attack mode.

I do pity him and those with a similar mindset. It's hard to imagine living within that dogmatic box and actually enjoying life.

Graduate Thinker Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 549

Quote:

I've thought about the "how to reform" question a lot with no results. In computer programming,
Fanaticism is like a recursive algorhythm. Every external influence has a result within the program,
and so nothing can get in or out. Like "God did it" so anything unexplained gives the "God did it" result.
Or "mysterious ways"... same thing. Anything that comes in that doesn't agree with the program comes
from the devil and as such is easily dismissed. Some members of my family are running this program
and I've never been able to break in, even using the Bible as my reference doesn't work. "You're not
reading it right" is the answer to that one. Accept Jesus and you'll understand it all.

Very difficult problem to solve.

Showing them reason alone will not work. The problem must be solved through psychology, as his problem is psychological. It is probably impossible for him to plant seeds of doubt within himself and therefore a psychological cure must be sought. However, I have no idea where to begin. I wish there was a psychiatrist who posted on this site!

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:00 am

MockingGods wrote:

You forgot one, the oldest and perhaps most often used neutralizer of fear... religion. I've heard it suggested it was prehistoric fear that may have been responsible for the evolution of our widely held proclivity to god belief. I find this a reasonable hypothesis.

Good possibility, and I think our belief in an afterlife is also related to evolution. It's our survival instinct gone wild; the instinct is very strong to keep us going through life, and so strong that it tries to come up with ways to survive after life. That's my own theory by the way. Patent Pending.


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