Atheist discrimination at my school.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:36 am

This letter I wrote to Atheist Alliance International and American Atheists explains my entire situation.

Quote:

To Whom it May Concern,

Hello! My name is Tyler Chalker. I am 17 years old and I goto Silverado High School in Las Vegas, Nevada. For the past month and a half now I have been desperately trying to start an Atheist Club at my school, but for some reason it has been INCREDIBLY difficult.

I first thought of the idea in class while I was reading about the F.A.C.T. (Fellowship Among Christian Teens) club and I thought, "If they can have a club why shouldn't I?" So I went to my chess coach (Whom I will from this point on refer to as Mr. V) and asked him if I could have an unofficial atheist club in his room for a bit, he said ok and I set to work.

The next day I got about 11 students to come and I gave a presentation, but unfortunately I was constantly interrupted by other theists in the room who were there doing homework. So I decided to ask the teacher in the room beside my chess coach (whom I will refer to from this point on as Mr. C) if I could use it and he said, "Sure, is it a secret meeting?" A little bit suprised I responded, "No" and he said, "Well it should be a secret or else it isn't any fun!" and I said, "Ok! It's a secret then." To which he responded, "Good!" and left the room.

I did my presentation with 14 people present and it went very well. We reviewed Pascal's Wager, Schrodingers Cat, Burden of Proof, and the theists who were there said they learned a lot and we even had a calm discussion after the presentation! Least to say, I was very ecstatic. So when I went home I made posters for Atheist Club and it instructed people to go to Mr. V's class room after school if they are interested. Next morning, I started putting all the posters up and went to class, but after class I noticed all the posters I put up were ripped down.

Disheartened, I went through the school day and went back to Mr. C's room, in which I had the previous meeting, and asked him once again if I could have a meeting here. This time he said, "No, now that I know what you were doing in here." Was it just me or did he not want to know just a day prior? I didn't start a confrontation and just said ok, but I put a poster on a wall right outside of Mr. V's class (Mr. V had no problem with me putting up the poster on his wall). But once I went inside Mr. C ripped the poster from the wall and walked away.

Angered, the next day I made a charter for Mr. V to sign to make the club official, but he said he didn't want to do it anymore because he was getting a lot of flak from students. And just then a student came up and growled, "You're not actually condoning Atheist Club are you Mr. V?!" to which I sarcastically responded, "Yeah! You're not actually condoning those blood-sucking atheists are you Mr. V!?" The kid glared at me (I was wearing my shirt which said, "God is Imaginary" on the front) and walked off.

So after that little incident my friend (Whom I will refer to as Jesus from this point on, and no, this is not a joke) and I set out to find a teacher who would host Atheist Club. We asked 10 teachers total in just that day. The first seven we asked laughed and said no, while the last four said to give them a week to think about it. We gave them a week and went back and they all said no because they don't want to be hassled by Bible-thumping students, but two said they would let us use the class but they would not sign the charter (which really doesnt get us anywhere).

I go to the assistant principal's secretary, with Jesus and my brother Paul. The secretary handles the formation of clubs, and I told her I was having a really hard time trying to form my club. She asked what my club was and I told her Atheist Club and she shrugged and said "Well there you go." My brother asked her, "What the hell was that supposed to mean?" His statement echoed my thoughts exactly. She paused a moment and responded, "Well... You need a teacher to form a club." I just thought, "Wow you just saved your ass." So I scheduled an appointment to see the assistant principal to talk about my dilemma. By this time I was feeling VERY discriminated against.

The day after I made the appointment, we decided to ask some more teachers. That day we asked seven more. Five of them laughed and said no (And I must add, I really love it when you ask someone a serious question and they laugh right in your face before the answer) The sixth said he would have done it but he was retiring that year and did not want to do any clubs and the seventh said, "I am not an atheist, but if you guys really, really need an advisor, and if all else fails I can advise it for you." I told him, "Your altruism is greatly appreciated, but I don't want to force someone to sign a charter if they really don't want to do it."

I waited EIGHT DAYS before I told my dad to give them a call about my appointment, because I was becoming VERY impatient. The day after my father called I finally got in to see the assistant principal (whom I will call Dr. S from this point on). Dr. S said I needed to have an advisor for safety reasons (really... what are a bunch of atheists going to do in a class room? Sacrifice a chicken and pray to Satan?). I told her it was unfair, because I have asked seventeen teachers up to that point if they would host my club and they all said no. She said it is up to the teachers if they want to commit to a club and she could not force a club on a teacher. Which I agreed with, but they don't have to host it, we can just use their room, but she still said no. I told her how Mr. V was being harassed by students and I told her that was unacceptable and it should be the administrations job to handle those kinds of things. She said it doesn't matter and the responsibility is with the teacher. Feeling defeated I didn't press the issue further and went back to class.

At the end of that day, Jesus and I decided to ask four more teachers. Two of them did the characteristic "Laughing-No" as I like to call it, and the other two just said no (Which was a nice change of pace from the laughing). So now here I am. Emailing the fine people of the American Atheists. Begging for help. I don't want to have to take this to court but I feel I may have to. Any help is appreciated.

-Sincerely,
Tyler James Chalker

Been 3 days since I emailed AAI and AA but they still havent responded.

Just Arrived Joined: Jan 11, 2008 Posts: 8

My unsolicited advice, take the teacher up on the offer to be an adviser. They did say they would do it if you could not get anyone else, and you just need a sponsor to have meetings.

It sounds like your first meeting generated a fruitful discussion and even caused some theists to stop and think. Continuing in that vein can accomplish a lot. Once you bring in lawyers, people get really irrational.

What is the result you want? To be able to have the club or to make a larger statement? Both are legitimate, just think about what you want to do.

Either way, good luck and kudos for standing up for your rights. Let us know how it turns out.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:07 am

Well I don't want to have someone advise the club if they don't want to. All I ask for is a room. Also, I wanted to ask if that sounds like discrimination to you?

Just Arrived Joined: Jan 11, 2008 Posts: 8

It does sound like discrimination, especially the laughing in your face bit. Imagine the uproar if you had wanted to start a bible club or muslim student club or a girl's science club and you got the same reaction "Girls can't do math! Ha!"

You are in a tough bind, you don't want to force someone to sponsor you, but you cannot find any volunteers.

Is there another option? Does a club have to have a teacher sponsor it, or could an outside volunteer be the sponsor? Does the F.A.C.T. club meet during school hours or afterwards? If during school hours, that smells fishy to me.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:17 am

patrick_sc wrote:

It does sound like discrimination, especially the laughing in your face bit. Imagine the uproar if you had wanted to start a bible club or muslim student club or a girl's science club and you got the same reaction "Girls can't do math! Ha!"

You are in a tough bind, you don't want to force someone to sponsor you, but you cannot find any volunteers.

Is there another option? Does a club have to have a teacher sponsor it, or could an outside volunteer be the sponsor? Does the F.A.C.T. club meet during school hours or afterwards? If during school hours, that smells fishy to me.

I don't want anyone to sponsor me if they don't want to, but letting me use their room doesn't necessarily mean they are sponsoring me. Several teachers said they'd let me use their room, they just don't want to sign the charter.

The assistant principal said a teacher needs to advise for safety reasons, (To make sure we don't set things on fire and stuff of that nature) but to tell you the truth I think it is just a facade.

The FACT meets after school on Fridays.

Just Arrived Joined: Jan 11, 2008 Posts: 8

You dang atheist kids is all ways setting stuff on fire!

Keep us posted, I'd like to hear how this ends.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:40 am

Rodion,

I can see and empathize with your situation, but I am not sure we can classify it as discrimination in any sort of legal sense. Here is why.

As a teacher, I can say that both of the schools at which I have worked look at sponsoring clubs as something that teachers do above and beyond their duties. As such, choosing whether they want to sponsor a particular club is at their own discretion. (Teachers do not have to sponsor clubs, and can choose which club or clubs to sponsor. Schools may not direct them in this manner.)

So, if someone wants to start a club, they must (a) find enough interest from the student body to prove to the administration that the club is 'legitijmate' in terms of student interest; and (b) find a teacher willing to sponsor the club.

It sucks that you have not found a teacher willing to sponsor your club yet. But that does not suffice for any type of legal discrimination. After all, clubs are not a 'right' as far as the school is concerned, but is an extra-curricular function that students CAN have but are not entitled to. (Many clubs do not get started, or get shut down, for lack of interest, as the school is not obligateed to let all clubs stand.)

My suggestion - if it is the club, rather than the message, that you are fighting for - is to change the name of the club to remove the word 'atheist' or 'atheism.' I had a similar experience when at the University of Richmond, I joined an upstart club called the "Atheist Order of Students." I suggested that, after lack of sponsorship interest, we change the name to "Association of Secular Students," which makes it sound less cult-like. We got much more sponsorship and membership interest after that.

Like it or not, the word 'atheist' is a hot-button word and sometimes, changing the name to something more like 'freeethought" or "secular" might make a big difference in teachers' willingness to back the club.

Now, if you are after the political statement more than the club, then compromising in the above manner might be antithetical to your goal. That is fine, but as another poster already said, make sure you know which aim you have and do what you can to achieve that aim.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:51 am

Kevinthepragmaticist wrote:

Rodion,

I can see and empathize with your situation, but I am not sure we can classify it as discrimination in any sort of legal sense. Here is why.

As a teacher, I can say that both of the schools at which I have worked look at sponsoring clubs as something that teachers do above and beyond their duties. As such, choosing whether they want to sponsor a particular club is at their own discretion. (Teachers do not have to sponsor clubs, and can choose which club or clubs to sponsor. Schools may not direct them in this manner.)

So, if someone wants to start a club, they must (a) find enough interest from the student body to prove to the administration that the club is 'legitijmate' in terms of student interest; and (b) find a teacher willing to sponsor the club.

It sucks that you have not found a teacher willing to sponsor your club yet. But that does not suffice for any type of legal discrimination. After all, clubs are not a 'right' as far as the school is concerned, but is an extra-curricular function that students CAN have but are not entitled to. (Many clubs do not get started, or get shut down, for lack of interest, as the school is not obligateed to let all clubs stand.)

My suggestion - if it is the club, rather than the message, that you are fighting for - is to change the name of the club to remove the word 'atheist' or 'atheism.' I had a similar experience when at the University of Richmond, I joined an upstart club called the "Atheist Order of Students." I suggested that, after lack of sponsorship interest, we change the name to "Association of Secular Students," which makes it sound less cult-like. We got much more sponsorship and membership interest after that.

Like it or not, the word 'atheist' is a hot-button word and sometimes, changing the name to something more like 'freeethought" or "secular" might make a big difference in teachers' willingness to back the club.

Now, if you are after the political statement more than the club, then compromising in the above manner might be antithetical to your goal. That is fine, but as another poster already said, make sure you know which aim you have and do what you can to achieve that aim.

I've got 32 signatures on the charter. Which is nearly nearly 4 times more than the FACT club. So I don't think interest is the problem. My question is, if I can't find a teacher to host my club, and let's assume that I asked every teacher in the school, then what? It's not exactly fair that the only reason a teacher doesn't host a club is solely for their religious beliefs or worse, for that matter, because they are afraid of student harrassment!

Don't I have a right to have a club just as much the FACT? And it's not just "the right to have a club" It's the right for equal oppurtunity. Which I do have.

And the reason I want it to be "Atheist Club" as opposed to "Society of Freethinkers" (which was a name I suggested after trying for a month to get a teacher) is for two reasons: 1) Why can't I have a direct title like the Fellowship Among Christian Teens? 2) Becuase it is a hot-button word, and more people would be interested in it because of it.

Oh and I like how you knew my first name haha

-=Edit=- Oh and I have another question for you, considering you're a professional educator: if a school allowed a club to use your room without your permission and said you didn't have to stay and advise if you didn't want to, but the club cleaned up its mess after every session, would that bother you?

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:25 am

raskalnikov wrote:

My question is, if I can't find a teacher to host my club, and let's assume that I asked every teacher in the school, then what? It's not exactly fair that the only reason a teacher doesn't host a club is solely for their religious beliefs or worse, for that matter, because they are afraid of student harrassment!

I share your frustration that no teacher seems to be willing to stick their neck out to help you here. And that is certainly something that was good of you to bring up to the school.

But, again, the way the policy at my school (and I suspect, of most other schools) is that it is really up to the teachers whether or not they sponsor a club and if so, what club to sponsor. Teachers cannot be forced to sponsor a club.
[quote='raskalnikov"]Don't I have a right to have a club just as much the FACT? And it's not just "the right to have a club" It's the right for equal oppurtunity. Which I do have. [/quote]

The problem is that in a very real sense, you don't have a right to have a club. Schools don't even have the obligation to open any kind of club, if they choose not to.

To put it differently, clubs are a privelege that the school grants, rather than a right, similar to having an article printed in the school news paper. It might seem like "viewpoint discrimination" not to let certain articles into the school news paper, but the school reserves the right to decide what articles it wouold like to let in.

Similarly with clubs.

Quote:

And the reason I want it to be "Atheist Club" as opposed to "Society of Freethinkers" (which was a name I suggested after trying for a month to get a teacher) is for two reasons: 1) Why can't I have a direct title like the Fellowship Among Christian Teens? 2) Becuase it is a hot-button word, and more people would be interested in it because of it.

I see. That is interesting, especially the second reason.
You might be right. There might, especially amongst young people, be more interest in a club that sounds more controversial and hot-button.

It is a shame that i do not teach at your school. I would certainly sponsor such a club.

In fact, there was a student two years ago who became aware of my atheism (he, ironically, found out about my infidelguy radio appearance) and "came out" to me as an atheist. He and I had many after-school talks and I suspect that there are more of him than just the one.

Quote:

Oh and I like how you knew my first name haha

Just don't kill your land lady.

Quote:

-=Edit=- Oh and I have another question for you, considering you're a professional educator: if a school allowed a club to use your room without your permission and said you didn't have to stay and advise if you didn't want to, but the club cleaned up its mess after every session, would that bother you?

Technically, it is the school'[s room; not mine. It happens all the time where a school will open its doors after hours to different groups, and teachers rooms are used without them being asked.

The only problem I would have is that, as my things are in the room, I would be concerned that nothing go missing. And as I am a special educator, it is more complicated because in my room, there are highly confidential files in my room. (Most teachers do not have confidential files in their rooms.) I think, though, that legally, it is my obligation to lock up those files, rather than the school's.

Short answer: I would not have a big problem if someone were to use my room without my express permission, as long as the school bore responsibility if anything went missing or was damaged.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:11 am

Kevinthepragmaticist wrote:

But, again, the way the policy at my school (and I suspect, of most other schools) is that it is really up to the teachers whether or not they sponsor a club and if so, what club to sponsor. Teachers cannot be forced to sponsor a club.

Agreed, and I personally would NEVER make a teacher sponsor my club.

Kevinthepragmaticist wrote:

The problem is that in a very real sense, you don't have a right to have a club. Schools don't even have the obligation to open any kind of club, if they choose not to.

To put it differently, clubs are a privelege that the school grants, rather than a right, similar to having an article printed in the school news paper. It might seem like "viewpoint discrimination" not to let certain articles into the school news paper, but the school reserves the right to decide what articles it wouold like to let in.

Similarly with clubs.

I'm not saying I have a right to have a club, I agree with you, but I do have a right to equal oppurtunity.

Kevinthepragmaticist wrote:

I see. That is interesting, especially the second reason.
You might be right. There might, especially amongst young people, be more interest in a club that sounds more controversial and hot-button.

It is a shame that i do not teach at your school. I would certainly sponsor such a club.

In fact, there was a student two years ago who became aware of my atheism (he, ironically, found out about my infidelguy radio appearance) and "came out" to me as an atheist. He and I had many after-school talks and I suspect that there are more of him than just the one.

I wish you were at my school =(

Kevinthepragmaticist wrote:

Technically, it is the school's room; not mine. It happens all the time where a school will open its doors after hours to different groups, and teachers rooms are used without them being asked.

The only problem I would have is that, as my things are in the room, I would be concerned that nothing go missing. And as I am a special educator, it is more complicated because in my room, there are highly confidential files in my room. (Most teachers do not have confidential files in their rooms.) I think, though, that legally, it is my obligation to lock up those files, rather than the school's.

Short answer: I would not have a big problem if someone were to use my room without my express permission, as long as the school bore responsibility if anything went missing or was damaged.

That is very interesting. Thanks for the response. Oh absolutely, I would totally agree there. If someone fucked with my shit I would be pissed too.

Master of Logic Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 9384

I dont think atheists or theists should have clubs on school campuses. If it is exclusionary and divisive for them to do such, then they will also, and rightfull so, cry foul when you do it.

My stance is the constitutional one. ON government grounds, keep it neutral, otherwise ON YOUR OWN TIME WITH YOUR OWN DIME. Atheists and theist students can use private sector buildings, such as a Barns and Nobel Coffee shop, or Fridays resturantee, or a private home, or in the case of theists, there local church.

BUT, if these Christian students insist on doing what they are doing, then the school cannot be hypocritical in not allowing you the same setting. Schools are there for learning, and should not be battlegrounds over political correctness or religious favortism.

Both you and they are there to learn, and any school club should be open to all and be neutral.

I dont like the fact that either of you are insisting on clubs on school grounds that are inherently divisive. But since they started it they cannot be hypocrites and not allow you the same.

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:44 am

Brian37 wrote:

I dont think atheists or theists should have clubs on school campuses. If it is exclusionary and divisive for them to do such, then they will also, and rightfull so, cry foul when you do it.

My stance is the constitutional one. ON government grounds, keep it neutral, otherwise ON YOUR OWN TIME WITH YOUR OWN DIME. Atheists and theist students can use private sector buildings, such as a Barns and Nobel Coffee shop, or Fridays resturantee, or a private home, or in the case of theists, there local church.

BUT, if these Christian students insist on doing what they are doing, then the school cannot be hypocritical in not allowing you the same setting. Schools are there for learning, and should not be battlegrounds over political correctness or religious favortism.

Both you and they are there to learn, and any school club should be open to all and be neutral.

I dont like the fact that either of you are insisting on clubs on school grounds that are inherently divisive. But since they started it they cannot be hypocrites and not allow you the same.

Agreed whole heartedly.

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:27 pm

As a teacher and fellow atheist in Las Vegas, I am sorry to hear about your dilemma.

I am the organizer of Las Vegas Atheists (through meetup.com) and a board member of Las Vegas Freethought Society. I don't have a quick answer for you, but I am confident we could come up with an appropriate path. Please feel free to contact me/us any time.

Sorry for the short response, but I am still at work finishing up a project.

www.lasvegasatheists.org
www.lvfs.org

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:57 am

Yeah hey! I got an email from a gentlemen named RayJ. He said he'd be contacting a few people for me. I was pleasantly suprised to finally get a response ^.^

Hopefully we can get some stuff done!

Oh and what school do you go to?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:47 pm

Woooo! I got a teacher! Finally after askin 26 teachers I got an advisor! Yay for me!


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